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Old 12-29-2018, 08:01 PM   #1
Jurassic_LP
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Default Bf 109 takeoff problems


At every start with the Kurfürst I'm getting of the runway. Please give some tips for improvements
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:28 PM   #2
razo+r
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Training and pratice.

My technique:

Rads open
engine auto
MW-50 on

"slowly" full throttle
full right rudder with some brake
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Last edited by razo+r; 12-29-2018 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:42 PM   #3
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Full rudder and some slight touches on brake will keep you on RWY.
And tail wheel lock...
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic_LP View Post

At every start with the Kurfürst I'm getting of the runway. Please give some tips for improvements
BEFORE the takeoff:
prop pitch set to 12o'clock and set to MANUAL
coolant flaps open and set to MANUAL
trim: at least in dcs, its more comfortable to have a fully nose down trim, so trimwheel all the way forward until you can read the 2 on the trimdisplay.

takeoff:


full right rudder even BEFORE you push the throttle forward.
throttle full forward, full power, then quickly slightly back, to not use MW50 at 1.8ata, but 1.4ata.
you might even need to touch the right brake briefly. in the very first part of your takeoff, it also helps to keep the stick slightly held to the right. (this is one thing i dont like in the dcs FM at all....ailerons are more effective at low speeds than the rudder. slight right aileron input acts like rudder in real life and keeps you straight)

the more you accelerate, the "less" rudder you will need(and with dcs physics, the less right aileron you will need)...but you will still need plenty and sometimes all the rudder you have. you dance on the rudder to keep her straight.

then there is the moment, where the tail comes up off the ground...its important, to have again full right rudder in that moment...its even better, if you do this in advance. better give full right rudder a second before the tail comes up. otherwise you are likely to tilt with one wing.

once the tail is up and you are running only on the mainwheels, keep your feet prepared to give left or right rudder inputs to keep the plane straight. at around 180-200kph, slightly pull on the stick to have a positive rate of climb.


i hope this post helps slightly more than the suggestion to just "practice"

EDIT: the above is one way. and pretty close to how you would do it in a real 109. in dcs though, there are many different ways to do it... it is even possible to takeoff even without any rudder inputs at all...im sure thats not going to happen in any real life 109.

Last edited by birdstrike; 12-29-2018 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 10:32 AM   #5
Jurassic_LP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
BEFORE the takeoff:
prop pitch set to 12o'clock and set to MANUAL
coolant flaps open and set to MANUAL
trim: at least in dcs, its more comfortable to have a fully nose down trim, so trimwheel all the way forward until you can read the 2 on the trimdisplay.

takeoff:


full right rudder even BEFORE you push the throttle forward.
throttle full forward, full power, then quickly slightly back, to not use MW50 at 1.8ata, but 1.4ata.
you might even need to touch the right brake briefly. in the very first part of your takeoff, it also helps to keep the stick slightly held to the right. (this is one thing i dont like in the dcs FM at all....ailerons are more effective at low speeds than the rudder. slight right aileron input acts like rudder in real life and keeps you straight)

the more you accelerate, the "less" rudder you will need(and with dcs physics, the less right aileron you will need)...but you will still need plenty and sometimes all the rudder you have. you dance on the rudder to keep her straight.

then there is the moment, where the tail comes up off the ground...its important, to have again full right rudder in that moment...its even better, if you do this in advance. better give full right rudder a second before the tail comes up. otherwise you are likely to tilt with one wing.

once the tail is up and you are running only on the mainwheels, keep your feet prepared to give left or right rudder inputs to keep the plane straight. at around 180-200kph, slightly pull on the stick to have a positive rate of climb.


i hope this post helps slightly more than the suggestion to just "practice"

EDIT: the above is one way. and pretty close to how you would do it in a real 109. in dcs though, there are many different ways to do it... it is even possible to takeoff even without any rudder inputs at all...im sure thats not going to happen in any real life 109.
Thank you, with this technique it works
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Old 12-30-2018, 01:40 PM   #6
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Default take off

i do exactly the same prop 12 o'clock flaps 20 degree radiator open only difrence its i set 1.3 ata max for take off it's more the enought
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Old 12-30-2018, 03:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
(this is one thing i dont like in the dcs FM at all....ailerons are more effective at low speeds than the rudder. slight right aileron input acts like rudder in real life and keeps you straight)



. it is even possible to takeoff even without any rudder inputs at all...im sure thats not going to happen in any real life 109.
I must say, that I agree with the most of advices you gave... but the statements above can not be accepted as right ones. First of all, in real world ailerons have no authority more than rudder. If rudder already has more authority at stall speeds both in yaw (of course!) and in roll because of significant adverse yaw effect of ailerons. As CPSU always taught us, the effect of aerodynamic forces depends on speed in second power, so at speed of TO start their effect are very low and sometimes can be even adverse.
And I desperately want to see video of 109's takeoff without rudder input... With ctrl-enter window on.


https://youtu.be/OaZ6lkqUul4
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Last edited by Yo-Yo; 12-30-2018 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 03:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
I must say, that I agree with the most of advices you gave... but the statements above can not be accepted as right ones. First of all, in real world ailerons have no authority more than rudder. If rudder already has more authority at stall speeds both in yaw (of course!) and in roll because of significant adverse yaw effect of ailerons. As CPSU always taught us, the effect of aerodynamic forces depends on speed in second power, so at speed of TO start their effect are very low and sometimes can be even adverse.
And I desperately want to see video of 109's takeoff without rudder input... With ctrl-enter window on.


https://youtu.be/OaZ6lkqUul4
if im not mistaken such a video already exists in the groundphysics thread.

and i completely agree with your statements about the real life behaviour of ailerons and rudder...

but i just cannot observe them that way in dcs.
especially in the 109, in vertical manouvers at stall speeds, its the rudder that all of a sudden seems to cause adverse yaw effects and not the ailerons.

with this statement i dont mean that adverse yaw is not modeled for ailerons,

(i know it is modeled)

but just that its definitely easier to climb higher before stalling when using the ailerons to keep the plane on the vertical path instead of trying to adjust with rudder...especially in the period close before the stall happens...this doesnt mean i am of the opinion that in dcs no rudder is needed at all though either. you will still need right rudder.

but its better to just give little right rudder at the start of your vertical manouver, and then dont move it anymore until the stall happens(even if the slipball shows drastical slip). and avoid the stall as long as possible with the ailerons. this might be connected with my previous observation, confirmed by others who tested this as well, that slight to medium slips dont seem to cause any drag at all. but thats an assumption on my part that there is a direct connection with the above.

i know this thing has slats which keeps the ailerons longer effective than without..but still.

i can also observe, that on the ground on takeoff, right ailerons all of a sudden keep the nose from drifting the the left, where even full right rudder doesnt do its job.(in dcs of course, not in real life)

these are my personal observations in dcs, flying the 109 since its beta release.

Last edited by birdstrike; 12-30-2018 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 04:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
And I desperately want to see video of 109's takeoff without rudder input... With ctrl-enter window on.

Not the most beautiful takeoff, but without rudder input and unlocked tail wheel.


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Old 12-30-2018, 06:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golani79 View Post
Not the most beautiful takeoff, but without rudder input and unlocked tail wheel.


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