TM Warthog - my gripes

Hansangb, where you quote me as being redundant, that's actually Remi's post. Chichlidfan responded to him, correcting him about "torque and lever length" where torque is a product of lever length"

I was responding to Remi, and I interpreted his comment to saying that stiction is related to torque, in that it is caused by a lack of torque. Tho I'll acknowledge that maybe I misinterpreted the statement.

So my response was to elaborate on what stiction is & the actual causes behind it.

You are right tho, I do agree w Chichlidfan that the leverage is what increases the torque.

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You probably could have avoided pinching off that wire if you knew there is a caution that needs to be followed... there is a relief notch in the articulation sphere that allows the wires to pass through... if you put it back together backwards it pinches the wires just like you experienced. You also could more easily solder-repair the broken brown wire, it's gonna be a pain to solder all 5 without screwing it up if your not already good at soldering, plus they also use a bit of hotglue as a strain-relief after cause they'll break too easy if not so you need to put that back as well, though a dab of silicone would likely also suffice.

 

The stock red grease is indeed garbage, and only gets worse if you let dust/cat hair etc build up in it. When you regreased it, you should have used Nyogel 767a, which is a damping grease that adds a vital missing damping element, nicer than simple lubrication like Molykote but even that is a huge step up from the stock junk though so probably not worth re-re-greasing it with Nyogel though I know people that have and they didn't regret it.

 

Now that it's clean and fresh grease though, use a dustshield to keep it clean and it will last a lot longer before getting munged up.

http://www.dualsticks.com/dustshields/

I put the size specs at the bottom of the page on my site if you want to cut your own out of plastic instead of buying the ones I make, but they do a good job at keeping out most of the contaminants that foul the grease. Alternatively use a section of a black sock and some zip ties to make a boot but best not to leave the neck open like it comes.

Been looking for Nyogel 767a everywhere, but no one has it unless you want a 50 gallon drum of it. Anyone have a recommended substitute you can get from Spades Hardware, Highs, or Work Despot?

Do you guys think a 3" extension will get rid of the sticktion? I really don't want to add anymore than necessary ...

Been looking for Nyogel 767a everywhere, but no one has it unless you want a 50 gallon drum of it. Anyone have a recommended substitute you can get from Spades Hardware, Highs, or Work Despot?

Nothing you buy at a hardware store (or even an industrial supply house) will come close... damping is not a property that just happens, it's a high tech process to make it, a magic industrial ingredient usually bought in quantity hence the obscurity for retail application . I spent years testing greases to find functional damping grease and this stuff really is in its own category. I have been making friction based mechanisms like this Custom TM Cougar For Mech Piloting - Imgur or Uholy Voodoo Devil Magic - Album on Imgur ... high precision zero-order controllers (absolute positioning -no detents/spring return, no deadzone... just smooth damping but tight enough to hold whatever position they're left in) that rely on greased rubs and literally no other greases compare to the quality of movement, feeling like mechanical hydraulic damping.

It was a saga to get any initially myself for the same reason, but after pestering enough places enough times someone placed a big enough order with Nye Lubricants to fire up the grease factory and make a new batch, then the world supply was replenished for a year or two so now it's back to square one.

I've been thinking of contacting Nye and seeing what it would take to get enough to distribute some myself. In the meantime, I have enough that I can send enough for a hog in a baggie in an envelope for like $5 if you pm me..

*As to theories of mechanical tolerances being the source I disagree, other than a certain mechanical failure that happens time to time (a crack in the piston where a guide rod goes through) the source of the ratcheting is nearly always fouled grease and sometimes not enough was used when factory assembled. Evaporation and accumulating ingesting debris are the cause but the stock grease is not good even when new, and the amount of grease used and quality of the environment (temps, airborne dust/contamination levels, humidity, etc) is what creates the variation among users.

Sanding is not really much help either though it doesn't hurt, the quality of the movement though is really dictated by the grease and its condition. A ratchety gimbal with an extension will still have the underlying problem just be less noticeable, whereas proper cleaning/regreasing addresses the underlying issue. Only use an extension if it makes sense for good reasons like replicating a long throw center stick but not as a way to stave of overhauling the base. Using a dustshield or boot substantially stretches out the TBO as well.

*rebuilt many warthogs over the years, for myself and others and have gotten to see inside a whole lot of them

I just wanted to clear up that it is definitely lever length that affects perceived stiction the most. The longer the lever length, the less force that is required to exceed the static friction of the ball-joint of the warthog base.

There are multiple ways to "fix" the stiction:

1) Decrease static friction

- Relubricate the joint with new lubricant

- Sand the surface of the joint

- Downside:

--- possibly sever the control cables threaded through the ball joint

--- invasive procedure which is time consuming and requires repeat procedures

--- cost of lubricant

2) Increase torque

- Buy or manufacture tube to extend the warthog grip away from the base

- Downside:

--- cost of extension

--- higher grip elevation resulting in shoulder pain unless the base elevation is decreased

--- decreasing base elevation with table mount is costly and requires desk compatible with mount

--- wider throw of the warthog grip, which can interfere with desk surface and chair

3) Change warthog base to gimbal system

- Downside:

--- cost of new joystick base

--- possible incompatibility in software

For me, the obvious solution is #2, for cost, simplicity, and greater fidelity to real cockpit in terms of throw of grip (except to F-16 I believe).

--- possible incompatibility in software

In fact is:

--- Assured incompatibility with Thrustmaster software - since this software look for base controller firmware code and not for grip. ;)

Been looking for Nyogel 767a everywhere, but no one has it unless you want a 50 gallon drum of it. Anyone have a recommended substitute you can get from Spades Hardware, Highs, or Work Despot?

I was lucky enough to find 767a, in a 2 oz. tube, on Amazon about four years ago. It wasn't cheap at $20. Unfortunately, it is no longer available.

EDIT: A look at my old order indicated that the seller was Micro-Tools. Checking their website reveals that they still carry it. It is actually a 50g (1.76oz) tube. The price is $26.16.

https://www.micro-tools.com/products/767a-50grt

EDIT2: On a second look, it appears that there is no way to add it to your cart so I am guessing that you can't get it from them after all.

EDIT3: A UK source has it listed as in stock. 100g tube for 26.30 (British Pounds).

https://shop.newgatesimms.com/product/nyogel-767a/

Awesome. Thanks for the link! I wonder if they will be wondering why there is a sudden run on the stuff! :)

Awesome. Thanks for the link! I wonder if they will be wondering why there is a sudden run on the stuff! :)

They indicated only 18 in stock when I looked. So buy it quick. :D

Btw, the link I posted was found on the first page of a google search for 'nyogel 767a'. No extraordinary google-fu required. :P

Do you guys think a 3" extension will get rid of the sticktion? I really don't want to add anymore than necessary ...

It may mask it some depending how bad it is.

3" is lots for my needs. I am quite pleased with the 7.5 cm extension.

It may mask it some depending how bad it is.

3" is lots for my needs. I am quite pleased with the 7.5 cm extension.

Cool ...thanks ......

Wow this thread has grown since I posted it.. sorry I've not been around to read up. The female din connector I needed wasn't in stock in the U.S., so they shipped it from France and it took two weeks to get here.

It showed up a few days ago, and I went out and bought a cheap 25w soldering iron and went to to town. With much cursing, and about 8 burns on the hand not holding the iron.. I've managed to get everything back together. I still have the Molykote 44 that I originally greased it with on it.. didn't bother regreasing a second time. Presently - no stiction *yay*

It wasn't overly difficult, though I struggled a bit because this is my first soldering job ever.. I usually take stuff to my dad who knows more about this kind of stuff.

I'm not sure if I did something wrong, but the stick was off center when I plugged it in. I found a copy of the TM calibration tool v1.13 on some forums somewhere and it's centered and working again.

If I end up having to take this thing apart again, I have to say I'd be tempted to throw this hunk of metal through a corporate window... but that's just the frustration of having to go through this speaking, and not a real threat.

The hardest part was attaching the groundwire to the circuit board.. I had taken most of the solder off when I deattached the old one.. and I couldn't heat up the board enough to make the solder stick to it.. when i finally managed doing so I was just happy to close it back up and test it out. I didn't use any hotglue as they sent me another female PS2 connector so I just cut the wires from the old one and left the ends attached for a guide on what to solder where. There was already solder on the pegs I needed to attach the wires to on the new female ps2 connection.. so that went alot easier than I thought it would. The connections felt strong enough.

Stick feels great without any stiction..all buttons are functional and I made sure all the wires were to the side this time when reassembling the gimbal. Molykote 44 seems to be doing nicely.. might end up ordering some of that nyogel if it's still available when I have some $$ to spare..but, I also might not, as the molykote 44 feels great and I really don't want to take this stupid thing apart again.. The pegs holding the ball inside weren't lubed at all when i initially took it apart.. so I think lubing them up made the biggest difference.

My Warthog is functional, and smooth as butter at the moment.. and I'm pleased with myself for having fixed it with my own elbow grease.. for the life of me.. I hope they rethink the design of the gimbal.. it's great that most of the stick is metal, and can be taken apart.. but... the way the wires feed through everything had me thinking "WHY?!?!?!" the whole time I was trying to solder everything back together.

At least now the stick feels like it should've when I took it out of the box over a year ago.