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DCS: Me 262 Discussion (Development on hold currently)


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3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Glad to read for once somebody who remembers the whole story :clap_2::clap_2::clap_2:. You're damn right we were lucky enough the B-17 threshold wasn't reached, despite I crave to see one in DCS some day I can't imagine what kind of mess that would have been, not feasible multicrew wise, let alone the Boeing license cost and that if they allow it for whatever reason they invent…

That's the reason why I pledged exactly 1$, I wanted to be a part of it but didn't trust Luthier whatsoever after previous messes he made… And yet, in the end it was a blessing ED took over the project so now we have the wonderful quality available in warbirds.

 

S!

Good dam we getting old, think the Money raised by Luthier was not enough for one seriouly working DCS Plane. After failing the Project ED took over it.  Only Plane what doesnt come from the raised Found was P-51. Was home Project from some ED Members. At least Luthier kicked the Door open for WW2. Only little bit sad about Me-262 from technical Standpoint to fly the first Jet Fighter, but the Combat expierince is rather Boring.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

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12 hours ago, MrExplosion said:

Flyable 262 was the first stretch goal. 

 

And switchting to a new theatre when the current one is at best half finished would make no sense at all. 

 

Not always, the first stretch goal was changed midway through the kickstarter campaign, when Luthier begun to believe that the Me 262 would be more popular and thus more likely to raise more money.

 

When would you consider a WW2 theater finished? Every single vehicle, plane and map? Half of them? Just the most important ones, but that would already be the matter of much debate. The entire timeframe or only the most crucial battles? I don’t think that it is possible or even desirable to spend that many resources for each warzone. Adding anything to DCS seems to require a lot of man hours and at some point you just get diminishing returns. Lowering the level of detail and watering down the sim just to get more stuff finished quickly is nothing I’d like to see either.

 

Personally, I would prefer to have spotlight like the most iconic aircraft, their adversaries and some supporting stuff for all theaters in DCS, than just one super detailed one, but I understand that for some the opposite might be more appealing.


Edited by Cunctator
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54 minutes ago, Cunctator said:

 

Not always, the first stretch goal was changed midway through the kickstarter campaign, when Luthier begun to believe that the Me 262 would be more popular and thus more likely to raise more money.

 

When would you consider a WW2 theater finished? Every single vehicle, plane and map? Half of them? Just the most important ones, but that would already be the matter of much debate. The entire timeframe or only the most crucial battles? I don’t think that it is possible or even desirable to spend that many resources for each warzone. Adding anything to DCS seems to require a lot of man hours and at some point you just get diminishing returns. Lowering the level of detail and watering down the sim just to get more stuff finished quickly is nothing I’d like to see either.

 

Personally, I would prefer to have spotlight like the most iconic aircraft, their adversaries and some supporting stuff for all theaters in DCS, than just one super detailed one, but I understand that for some the opposite might be more appealing.

 

I understand your view. But what is the most iconic Axis aircraft of late 44 - early 45 in your eyes? In my eyes it's the 262 & D9. K4 in a supporting role. And we are almost there. Allies need Tempest and 150 Octane. Then we need a proper map and we have a somewhat complete theatre. Or what do you think?

Without the Tempest and the 262, the D9 and K4 make no sense at all. 


Edited by MrExplosion
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Den Kampf und Sieg so konzentriert.

 

Das macht uns glücklich, stolz und froh,

Der Jägerei ein Horrido!

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The decision to add the D9 was made when DCS WW2 was not a thing, to have an Axis counterpart that can fight the P-51D on equal footing, just as we only have the F-86 and MiG-15 for Korea. I think the K4 was the real mistake. They should have made the G-6 or G-14 instead, the true workhorses of the Luftwaffe and in service until the end of the war. When late WW2 Europe comes to my mind I think about Luftwaffe fighters desperately attacking huge, escorted, heavy bomber formations. That is the direction I would pursue as ED to flesh out the Europe theater. Expand the current Channel map to the north and east to include parts of East Anglia with some bomber bases and the coast of the Netherlands where the Luftwaffe can try to intercept incoming raids. Most of the new map area would just be water. The D9 would still fit in.

A true late 44 - early 45 theatre would require a resource intensive map of densely populated central Europe/Germany. I rather would like to see them spend this resources on a Cold War Germany map than on the very tail end of WW2.

Yes, as the first operational jetfighter the Me 262 eventually deserves a place in DCS and I would buy it on day one, but I am fine with it being added later. It is of enormous importance for the development of combat aviation, but the actual combat ops in WW2 were more of footnote compared to the scale of WW2 air war. The latter is especially true for the K4. I wouldn't built the entire theatre around them.

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13 hours ago, MAD-MM said:

Good dam we getting old, think the Money raised by Luthier was not enough for one seriouly working DCS Plane. After failing the Project ED took over it.  Only Plane what doesnt come from the raised Found was P-51. Was home Project from some ED Members. At least Luthier kicked the Door open for WW2. Only little bit sad about Me-262 from technical Standpoint to fly the first Jet Fighter, but the Combat expierince is rather Boring.

You're forgetting the Dora was either an ED project which Luthier kind of attributed to his own kickstarter. From a performance standpoint DoraVsP-51 is a perfect match, but Luthier choices for the rest of the planeset was somewhat arbitrary and not very wise. I guess his previous experience in biased pseudo-sims made the trick in his mind or the like.

 

S!

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"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

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On 12/23/2020 at 4:14 AM, Cunctator said:

 

The 2013 Kickstarter was a giant mess. It was run by Ilya Shevchenko, with the online nickname Luthier . . .

 

 


Yeah, I emailed IIya as the first drop (P-51) had some install issues, and we interacted for a bit before he went dark.

Have been through this since the beginning.

Very grateful for what ED did . . . which is why I kinda shake my head, and give rage posts about these developments a bemused smile.

It will come, when it comes, and the P-47 will keep me plenty busy in the meantime.


Edited by SmirkingGerbil
Confusing sentence removed.

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Edited by Hummels

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6 hours ago, NineLine said:

Nothing has been canceled. She stated its not currently in development as the Mossie is currently the focus. Thanks.

Thanks NineLine!

 

Just now, Hummels said:

I hope that if the developers start making Messerschmitt 262, they will make a map with it. There are too many planes (K-4, D-9, D-40, I-16) that can't be used because there are no maps needed

Can't be used? Why? You can put every plane on every map. 

 

The normandy map could be extended to the south by 20-30km to include Chateaudun. Me262s operated from there

 

Fox

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4 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

Can't be used? Why? You can put every plane on every map. 

I hope that developers will find the best solution that the created planes will be used on a single map.


Perhaps a map of the Ardennes would solve many problems with the choice of aircraft and military equipment.
For example the map is playable for the events of late 1944-early 1945, as well as day and night operations to intercept bombers in 1940-1945
But it is difficult to understand how large a map is playable with such a density of cities. There are a lot of cities that are too big...Brussels, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Cologne, etc.

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Someone need remember:
Normandy map (part ofKickstarted), build by Ugra-Media 3rd Party.

Channel Map, build by Eagle Dynamics.

 

Ugra Media has talked with complete the Syria, expeced make improvements on Normandy maps. ED has your own plans on WW2 maps, now moving to Marianas maps (first modern and after WW2), and Nick Gray has talk about future build WW2 Battle of Britain and Pacific aircrafts.

 

About maps, ED has plans to "interconect" diferent maps, to use them on the future "Whole World" map technology.


Edited by Silver_Dragon
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 12/27/2020 at 3:46 PM, iFoxRomeo said:

Thanks NineLine!

 

Can't be used? Why? You can put every plane on every map. 

 

The normandy map could be extended to the south by 20-30km to include Chateaudun. Me262s operated from there

 

Fox

 

I think he means that it is not historically accurate.

 

Personally I like the planes historically matching the map if possible, but it is certainly not a very big deal for me. The other sim has matching maps and plane sets and yet ALL servers use fictional scenarios in order to make missions fun and engaging. Also, how are you going to make a dynamic war server with realistic missions? That's impossible.

 

In my opinion, realistic missions are for closed sessions with your squadron and curated mission but for public servers this approach doesn't work too well.

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  • 1 month later...

Must admit I'm very sad and disappointed that now two of the most interesting aircraft I was eagerly awaiting for DCS, the F-4E & Me262, are both on hold.

 

Personally I will never understand why the Mosquito was chosen before the Me262, mainly because it wasn't even something a lot of people were eagerly awaiting since the kickstarter. Yes I know ED didn't make the kickstarter, but they took it on, and with that the priority should've been to first release the aircraft the kickstarter initially promised, that's the whole premise of taking over a project, to finish it according to the initial goals first, and then add more to it later if resources & popularity permit.

 

Second reason I don't understand the decision is that, as it currently stands the Mossie will basically present nothing but a target on the WWII servers, being unable to match the single seaters in any way shape or form, and with nothing but AI to target on the ground, and perhaps a few AI bombers here and there. There are no player controlled Bf110's, Ju88's or Me410's to mix it up with and stand a chance, instead you got a sky riddled with thuroughbred single seaters ready to eat you for lunch.

 

So as much as I like the Mossie for what it was, and also find the scenarios it fought under IRL highly interesting and definitely a cool thing to experience in a sim, this just isn't something DCS's WWII arena can provide atm. There simply isn't any player controlled opposition for it that it can effectively fight. 

 

Ah well, I do hope they atleast plan on a worthy adversary for it at least. Also if we're lucky, the devs might decide that a Tempest Mk.V or Spitfire Mk.XIV will be accompanying the Me262 once they start work on it again. 


Edited by Hummingbird
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Well let me start by saying, and I have said this to Nick as well, it would be an absolute joy to fly the grandpa of Fighter Jets in an environment of DCS World. That said, I think people place way to much into the jet as well, it was unreliable, it was as game changing for the war back then for many reasons, many not of the planes doing. So to fly in in DCS WWII as real as possible, I really dont think that it would be as impactful as people think. Not to mention, wasnt the most meaningful and effective tactic vs the 262 to shoot it when it was RTB, or when it was already on the ground?

 

Second, we are trying to complete someone else's vision, Igor did his very best to recover what he could from that whole event, then we lost Igor, and now Nick is at the helm, he has more vision for WWII support that ever before, its his jam, its what he loves, heck he flies them. So when I bring up the 262, he says, yeah but what about the Hellcat 🙂 So we are stuck between what someone else's vision was, which was pretty messy and a bit all over the place, to someone that is very knowledgeable in WWII aircraft, and has a very different look on it.

 

The Mossie, with all due respect, I think you are judging the Mossie solely on DCS WWII PvP, the Mossie is absolutely an incredibly versatile aircraft, its not meant for dancing with fighters, but getting in and out without running into anyone. I can imagine flying balls out, belly scraping the deck, hard and fast, popping up, hitting targets, and leaving the way I came. Dodging air defenses, out running enemy fighters, etc. It will be a challenge for Luftwaffe players to defend against. I think if used right, it will be absolutely a dream aircraft in DCS. You are stuck on this 1v1 mentality, and in reality, the Mossie just didnt square up against anyone, they were hardly lost (90ish) during the war, if the enemy saw them, most times it was too late to catch them, they didnt fly around looking for similar twin engine planes to fight, that's not how war works.

 

We will eventually get a 262 I think, but I also think we have much more brilliantly fun aircraft out there, especially with the Pacific opening up, and Nick's dream of getting BoB in DCS. 

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Well that sounds a lot like the Me262 is far off indeed, which is really sad news for me.

 

Sure the Me262 was unreliable, so were most German vehicles that point in the war due to a major lack of lubricants and thus longer runs between disassembly & maintenance etc, not due to any design flaws. So yeah, woulda loved to fly this great aircraft, and experience what it possibly could've been capable of had it not suffered from all the logistical issues the Germans were fighting with at the time.

 

As for the Mossie, well consider that the German aircraft we have atm are way faster than the average German aircraft (109G6's & 190A's) assigned to protect against such incursions. So I think the Mossie will have a dang hard time running on the MP servers.


Edited by Hummingbird
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3 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

 

As for the Mossie, well consider that the German aircraft we have atm are way faster than the average German aircraft (109G6's & 190A's) assigned to protect against such incursions. So I think the Mossie will have a dang hard time running on the MP servers.

 

It will be fun to see. If done right, the Germans will have to be up in the air and know where to go to catch them I think.

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1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Pacific opening up, and Nick's dream of getting BoB in DCS

 

If such projects are to come to fruition, the success or failure of these visions will depend on whether we have a sufficient amount of era-appropriate assets to create a proper theater environment.


Edited by Charly_Owl
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14 minutes ago, Charly_Owl said:

 

If such projects are to come to fruition, the success or failure of these visions will depend on whether we have a sufficient amount of era-appropriate assets to create a proper theater environment.

 

100%, its all in the planning phase right now, especially the Pacific. Thanks.

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Why is it so hard for ED to position themselves? Why this eggdance for so many years already?

Whenever I read "it is planned" I have to "insert vomiting smilie here"😅

 

Eventually every aircraft that was ever built will be "planned" for DCS, given enough time. As there will be a Battlefield 10 some day. So please stop abusing the word "planned" and words of equivalent meaning.

 

Why can't YOU(not you personally Norm, but ED as a company with Nick at the top) admit that the DCS Me262 is dead. Obviously noone is working on it. YOU promised it, otherwise we wouldn't talk about it for 6(7 if you take the Kickstarter into account) years already in the DCS:Me262 subforum.

 

I have no objection regarding the Mossie. Can't wait to fly her in DCS. She brings to DCS something we didn't have before. Twin engine propeller, fast bomber, heavy weapons. Fantastic!

 

That's why I think the 262 will be a great addition to DCS. Twin jet, significant speed, extreme armament(in a way that it only relies on slow firing Mk108s, unlike the K4), difficult engines.

 

What will BOB bring to DCS? A Spitfire vs. Bf109 combat... but wait, that's what we already have. We have a Spitfire vs. Bf109. It's the same stuff, just a slightly different colour then. The speeds are lower, the weapons are weaker, but the tactics remain very similar.

That's why I'm not a fan of a Aircraft Mk.I till -XX, it is still the same aircraft. There is no significant change.

Spitfire Mk.I-XIV and Bf109E3-G10. Nice to have, but does it change the tactics? I think not significantly.

Don't get me wrong. I would by Spitfire Mk.I-XIV the moment they are in the store. But that doesn't change the way the people play.

You can't use the same tactic you use vs a Bf109 against a Me262.

 

Before you bring more stuff of the same kind, bring new options, and then you can continue with the "same" stuff in different nuances. No aircraft we have now flys and fights like the others. Spitfire doesn't fight and fly like a Mustang, doesn't fight and fly like a Kurfürst, doesn't... Thunderbolt... Anton... Dora... you get the point I think. And Mossie will fight and fly differently to what we have now and a Me262 would again fight and fly differently...

How would a G6-late in comparison to the K4 fight against a Mustang/Spitfire/Thunderbolt? Probably very similarly.

 

Why not Me262 and then a Gloster Meteor?

 

Imagine the tension you have in a Bf109 when you know there are possibly Meteors in your area. 

 

If YOU(ED) promise something, then do it, or admit that it is cancelled. Every other behaviour is not honest to your fans and paying customers. There will be an uproar but then everyone knows what is happening in the future and you could move this thread to the chit-chat or whish section. 

Everything that won't be released within 4 years is just simply a wish and nothing more. And with the Me262 we are in the year 7 already.

 

I'm a big fan of DCS. It is a very unique piece of software. I really enjoy DCS so much, because it is a Sandbox full of possibilities, no competitor can offer.

 

Fox

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It seems we need more developers prepared to take on WW2 content. More flyables, AI, bigger maps.

 

I love the DCS warbirds, have them all and I’ve just invested in a WH stick extension to fly them properly,  but at the moment we’re getting what, one per year? DCS WW2 has been a thing since 2014 and we have 7 flyables. DCS Battle of Britain would be mega but even though it could be completed with a fairly minimal planeset it’d need several flyables and about a dozen AI. Then the Pacific is mentioned as well...?

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@iFoxRomeoIf it were dead, we would say it's dead. As WWII for DCS has developed through the years and management changes so has our priorities and what we think we want to see in that, and what we feel our customers want. The 262 is not off the table, it has been actively researched and documents collected, but that doesn't necessarily make it the next best choice. Marianas will be coming out soon, and after that, work will start on the WWII version, if we feel we are better served firing off a couple Pacific Aircraft then going back to ETO, then we will. 

 

Because our aircraft are not cookie cutter versions of each other, and take time to make, its important to make sure our time is invested wisely, and in a manner that will bring good return on investment. Maybe its time for another poll, and I can give a list of possible aircraft and see what people want the most, at least a sample of the people on the forums. 

 

@MogsterWe have the basis of the aircraft we need, because we have Spits, 190s, and 109s, variants are probably mostly researched and ready to be built. We have a Map that could be tweaked for BoB, we need assets and AI aircraft to fill it out, but it could be done in a reasonable amount of time, as well, as WWII in DCS grows, the depand and need for more devs grow, and growth in the WWII will only help that, maybe we can get to a point where we have a Pacific and ETO team, who knows. But progress progresses. 

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WW2 Pacific will add a lot to DCS, mainly WW2 carrier ops and naval warfare, but it is also a theater that wasn't done properly or at all for a very long time. I would imagine that it is also more attractive for that emerging Asian markets. The Pacific certainly has the potential to attract many more people to DCS WW2 with no competition of any kind around. If M3L finishes the F4U this year with an Essex Class carrier and some Japanese assets, a good foundation will  already be there.

The problem with forum polls is that mostly the followers of the current set up will vote, which is not so optimal if you try top expand your customer base and attract new players. 

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