Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event

I am not sure how there are so many misconceptions about this.

-The Hornet is a 7.5G airplane. That is it. That’s what it was built for.

-Exceeding 7.5G will break the airplane.

-The Paddle Switch is for dire emergencies. Such as: a dive recovery where you’d otherwise hit the ground, a last ditch defense where you assess you’re certain to die anyway. That’s about it.

-The paddle switch is NOT (as in NEVER) used for normal use, used for fighting unless in extremis as described above, used for calculating performance such as turn rate, used to build E-M diagrams, etc etc etc.

-The paddle switch is not trained to be used. It is not trained to be used even in extremis (the pilot would have to think of that on his own).

-Again, the Hornet is a 7.5G airplane. Not a 10G airplane. Using the paddle switch could/would cause the jet to break, in unpredictable ways. It’s not built for that. It is not flown that way. I personally would not use it unless about to crash into the ground or the enemy is at my 6 and there are bullet whizzing past my head...and I’d be praying the airplane stays in one piece.

-If you pull the stick too quickly your input may be too fast for the G Limiter and you may be able to have a transient G above 7.5G. We train to avoid this, however IRL the jet will pop an MSP code of 811 is the jet truly overstressed. So sometimes the jet will pull 7.8G or something and not pop the code; sometimes it will. Do not interpret this to mean that the jet is rated to more than 7.5G.

TLDR: the jet is is 7.5G. Paddle switch is for emergencies. Performance calculations are done for 7.5G. The paddle switch will break the jet. It’s use isn’t trained to.

Clear?

Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event

Mover Snodgrass is an ace and also a living legend :

If you've researched information on the F-14, it is pretty likely that the name Dale Snodgrass has appeared somewhere in what you've read. "Snort" is virtual legend in the Tomcat community, and with more than 4,800 hours in the F-14, he is the most experienced Tomcat pilot in the world. Over a 26-year career in Naval Aviation, he had moved from being the first student pilot to trap an F-14 on a carrier to commanding the US Navy's entire fleet of Tomcats as the Commander of Fighter Wing Atlantic. Now retired, Snort is on the airshow circuit, flying a wide range of aircraft, from the F4U and P-51 to the F-86, MiG-15, and MiG-17.

The accolades for Snort's flying are long and distinguished.....twelve operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours, including command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm, the Navy's "Fighter Pilot of the Year" in 1985, Grumman Aerospace's "Topcat of the Year" for 1986, a US Navy Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot from 1985-1997, and numerous decorations for combat and peacetime flight.

http://www.sponauer.com/snodgrass/

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the-real-top-gun-32185/?page=1

 

 

I don't know who are you but i trust what Snodgrass say. I'm sure that the experience in real life of Snodgrass is true and you are not the person who can tell that nodgrass is wrong about f14. I repeat that he is an ace and also a living legend.

 

 

 

About the question of G limit f14 has not g limit in real life and in real life the only limit is when the f14 breaks. So the g limit for f14 is only your limit and not a real limit, not to mention some iranian pilots who claim they pulled f14 past 10g. And in real life a real pilot don't need to look at the g indicator beacause he feels it with his body. I think you don't really know what is realism.

You do realize Mover is a Viper Air Force pilot that now trains other servicemen in air combat as an aggressor? So, you’re probably right that he had no idea how to fly a plane or fight in actual combat let alone if you should or shouldn’t look at your G indicators in an aircraft. Therefore, with all of your enlightenment and reading, why don’t you tell all of us how the real fly boys do it all?

I’m sorry to start this snarky attitude, but frankly this whole mindset of people trying to tell real Air Force pilots what is right or wrong is just ridiculous.

Mover Snodgrass is an ace and also a living legend :

If you've researched information on the F-14, it is pretty likely that the name Dale Snodgrass has appeared somewhere in what you've read. "Snort" is virtual legend in the Tomcat community, and with more than 4,800 hours in the F-14, he is the most experienced Tomcat pilot in the world. Over a 26-year career in Naval Aviation, he had moved from being the first student pilot to trap an F-14 on a carrier to commanding the US Navy's entire fleet of Tomcats as the Commander of Fighter Wing Atlantic. Now retired, Snort is on the airshow circuit, flying a wide range of aircraft, from the F4U and P-51 to the F-86, MiG-15, and MiG-17.

The accolades for Snort's flying are long and distinguished.....twelve operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours, including command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm, the Navy's "Fighter Pilot of the Year" in 1985, Grumman Aerospace's "Topcat of the Year" for 1986, a US Navy Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot from 1985-1997, and numerous decorations for combat and peacetime flight.

http://www.sponauer.com/snodgrass/

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the-real-top-gun-32185/?page=1

 

 

I don't know who are you but i trust what Snodgrass say. I'm sure that the experience in real life of Snodgrass is true and you are not the person who can tell that nodgrass is wrong about f14. I repeat that he is an ace and also a living legend.

 

You have to have 5 air to air kills to be an ace. He is not an ace. Snodgrass was a guy who over-g'd the Tomcat on his fini and handed it back to maintenance. Ask any maintainer how they feel about that.

About the question of G limit f14 has not g limit in real life and in real life the only limit is when the f14 breaks. So the g limit for f14 is only your limit and not a real limit, not to mention some iranian pilots who claim they pulled f14 past 10g. And in real life a real pilot don't need to look at the g indicator beacause he feels it with his body. I think you don't really know what is realism.

I have 1000 hours in the F-16 and 400 hours in the Hornet. I have employed the Viper in combat. Please tell me more about realism. I'll await your resume.

We need to get @MaxMPower in here. I want to hear about flanker stuff.

Maybe a little bit of Mig-29 stuff, but I believe his primary platform was the Su-27 and Su-35.

You have to have 5 air to air kills to be an ace. He is not an ace. Snodgrass was a guy who over-g'd the Tomcat on his fini and handed it back to maintenance. Ask any maintainer how they feel about that.

I forgot to mention that Snodgrass was also a former Top Gun instructor.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/capt-dale-snort-snodgrass/

And i think you are absolutely wrong and also unfair because, with that you call an over-g, he has saved the life of his RIO, his own life and an f14 which costs many millions of dollars, from a mach 4 SAM missile during a mission of war in the Gulf, and he also didn't damage the plane because he had to go back to the carrier and land. You had to write he was an hero, and the fact you did not, put me many doubts regard the person you are and how much you are fair.

I have 1000 hours in the F-16 and 400 hours in the Hornet. I have employed the Viper in combat. Please tell me more about realism. I'll await your resume.

And you have 0 hours on a Tomcat while Snodgrass has 4800 hours, 1000 carrier landings night, day and all kinds of weather conditions.

So, i'm sorry, but i go on to trust what Snodgrass say and i go on to think that if an over-g in real life will save my life and the life of my RIO i'll do it without any problem and i would never be your RIO on an F14 after what you wrote about Snodgrass.

Here is his curriculum:

US Navy highlights include:

One of the first two Navy Flight School Graduates to be selected for F-14 Tomcat training.

First non fleet experienced pilot to Carrier qualify in the F-14 Tomcat, both day and night.

12 operational Fighter Squadron/Wing tours.

Navy Fighter Weapons School Graduate and Instructor (TOPGUN).

Selected as the Navy’s Fighter Pilot of the Year in 1985.

Selected by Grumman Aerospace as “TOPCAT OF THE YEAR” (best F14 Pilot in 1986).

12 Operational Fighter Squadron / Wing tours.

Command of Fighter Squadron 33 during Desert Storm.

Led 34 combat missions in Desert Storm as overall Strike or Fighter Lead.

Wing Commander for all of the Navy’s F-14 Squadrons (14), totaling over 300 aircraft and 5,000 personal from 1994 – 1997.

Highest time F-14 Pilot, with 4,900 hours in the Tomcat.

7,800 hours in Fighters including 1,287 Carrier Arrested Landings.

Tomcat Flight Demonstration Pilot 1985 – 1997.

Military Decorations include:

Legion of Merit (3) for superior performance in positions of great responsibility.

Bronze Star (1) for Leadership and (1) for Valor during Desert Storm.

Meritorious Service Medal (2) for exceptional service in the position of Senior Leadership.

Air Medal (2) for Valor during Desert Storm, (1) Strike.

Navy Commendation Medal (3).

Various Service and Campaign Ribbons and Award.

Civilian Aviation and Air-show highlights include:

Volunteer instructor for the Kenya Wildlife Service Pilots in Kenya

bush 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006.

Over 12,500 total hours which includes 7,800 Navy Fighter hours

and 2,500 hours in Vintage Fighters (Warbirds).

Just exceeded over 1,000 hours in F-86 Sabre.

Surface Solo and Formation Aerobatic qualified in:

1. F-86 Sabre

2. Mig 15 Fagot

3. Mig 17 Fresco

4. L-39 Albatross

5. MS760 Paris Jet

6. P-51 Mustang

7. F4-U Corsair

8. P-40 Warhawk

9. T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard

10. 8KCAB Super Decathlon

• Designated one of only nine civilian USAF Heritage Pilots.

• 25 Years of Air-show experience and over 1,000 low level performances in high performance aircraft.

• Single / Multi-Engine / Instrument Instructor (CFI).

• FAA designated Aerobatic Competency Evaluator and Designated Formation Check Pilot.

• 20 years providing Low Altitude (Air-show) Aerobatic Instruction.

https://swisspl.com/ambassadors/dale-snort-snodgrass/

If there were a proper over G damage model, the paddle switch wouldn't be so tempting .

The Dunning-Kruger effect is being exacerbated by the false rewards for poor in game flight technique.

I think you don't really know what is realism.

This guy should get some sort of award for dumbass comment of the year. telling an actual fighter pilot he doesn't "know what is realism"

What mover said is accurate, over G'ing and aircraft to save your own life (as snodgrass seemingly did) is something you would do just like you would pull the paddle switch in the hornet to save your own life. Doesn't make it this great amazing thing that you all of sudden would do all the time. you should go find a way to contact snodgrass and ask him if since he pulled 10g all the time in the tomcat, he'll look at you like your an idiot, just like everyone else in this thread is doing now.

We do have actual F-14 pilots we can ask... just saying,

This guy should get some sort of award for dumbass comment of the year. telling an actual fighter pilot he doesn't "know what is realism"

 

What mover said is accurate, over G'ing and aircraft to save your own life (as snodgrass seemingly did) is something you would do just like you would pull the paddle switch in the hornet to save your own life. Doesn't make it this great amazing thing that you all of sudden would do all the time. you should go find a way to contact snodgrass and ask him if since he pulled 10g all the time in the tomcat, he'll look at you like your an idiot, just like everyone else in this thread is doing now.

Unfortunately i confirm what i wrote because in real life a good pilot, just like Snodgrass, save his RIO life, his own life and the plane, but take a look at what Mover wrote:

Do you think this is realism? I don't think so.

And please, tell "idiot" to another one, ok? you are not welcome if you insult.

I can't tell if this guy is a troll or is like a kid without a clue.... or an adult with some broken mental faculties....

Reminds me of BFM Bar....

*sigh*

Unfortunately i confirm what i wrote because in real life a good pilot, just like Snodgrass, save his RIO life, his own life and the plane, but take a look at what Mover wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think this is realism? I don't think so.

 

 

A please, tell "idiot" to another one, ok? you are not welcome if you insult.

You said earlier that the Tomcat has no G limit, but in the actual Grumman documentation and Natops it had a G limit of 7.5. You’re basing all of your assertions on what you’ve read in books and online and continually put down input provided by real world jet pilots right here in this thread. It makes you come across as a know it all, but in reality I’m betting you have no real world experience. I just can’t wrap my head around how you can do that.

Just because a pilot did something doesn’t mean it was right or should have been done, in your case your accounts about this 14 pilot. Lots of these planes can pull more than the rated G. However if you do do that bad things can happen which is exactly why it should not be done unless you are going to fly into the ground and become part of the dirt. Planes are not expendable assets. Planes are war machines used to fight. A plane that was over limited has to be taken down and serviced or even worse decommissioned to make it capable again and a plane that is down is one less plane that can be used to fight.

So my suggestion to everyone here is to get off your high horse and listen to the guys that have done this in real life. And when I say listen to the guys that have done it in real life I mean the people that you can talk to right here and right now and not from some book. Mover, Lex, and GB have all flown in real life and still do to this day so discounting what they’re saying comes across as close minded and self absorbed.

This event is going to have G limits whether you like it or not so continued complaining about it is going to do nothing. Let’s all work towards having a good time and raising funds for an awesome charity.

I can't tell if this guy is a troll or is like a kid without a clue.... or an adult with some broken mental faculties....

 

Reminds me of BFM Bar....

 

*sigh*

Be quiet please, be quiet

You said earlier that the Tomcat has no G limit, but in the actual Grumman documentation and Natops it had a G limit of 7.5. You’re basing all of your assertions on what you’ve read in books and online and continually put down input provided by real world jet pilots right here in this thread. It makes you come across as a know it all, but in reality I’m betting you have no real world experience. I just can’t wrap my head around how you can do that.

 

Just because a pilot did something doesn’t mean it was right or should have been done, in your case your accounts about this 14 pilot. Lots of these planes can pull more than the rated G. However if you do do that bad things can happen which is exactly why it should not be done unless you are going to fly into the ground and become part of the dirt. Planes are not expendable assets. Planes are war machines used to fight. A plane that was over limited has to be taken down and serviced or even worse decommissioned to make it capable again and a plane that is down is one less plane that can be used to fight.

 

So my suggestion to everyone here is to get off your high horse and listen to the guys that have done this in real life. And when I say listen to the guys that have done it in real life I mean the people that you can talk to right here and right now and not from some book. Mover, Lex, and GB have all flown in real life and still do to this day so discounting what they’re saying comes across as close minded and self absorbed.

 

This event is going to have G limits whether you like it or not so continued complaining about it is going to do nothing. Let’s all work towards having a good time and raising funds for an awesome charity.

 

I agree with you and i know NATOPS. But why at the beginning Mover and the others gave the limit of 7 g when the Natops limit is 7.5G? And i never said that in normal conditions you can pull 8-10g, but what if it's necessary to save ourself, RIO and plane and it is the only way to do that, what to do? I think that only a skilled F14 pilot could answer.

I agree with you and i know NATOPS. But why at the beginning Mover and the others gave the limit of 7 g when the Natops limit is 7.5G? And i never said that in normal conditions you can pull 8-10g, but what if it's necessary to save ourself, RIO and plane and it is the only way to do that, what to do? I think that only a skilled F14 pilot could answer.

Originally Mover and I had thought the G limit was 6.5 for the tomcat. However, after looking into Grumman documentation and reviewing the Natops we found that it was intact 7.5. The 7 and 8 g limits in the competition come from there also being an added .5 g buffer that is given to pilots for extra room.

Originally Mover and I had thought the G limit was 6.5 for the tomcat. However, after looking into Grumman documentation and reviewing the Natops we found that it was intact 7.5. The 7 and 8 g limits in the competition come from there also being an added .5 g buffer that is given to pilots for extra room.

8G seems reasonable, but i would really like an opinion of a real F14 pilot.

About Tomcat, it seems that graphics and papers don't say all.

Also for me realism is important.

I agree with you and i know NATOPS. But why at the beginning Mover and the others gave the limit of 7 g when the Natops limit is 7.5G? And i never said that in normal conditions you can pull 8-10g, but what if it's necessary to save ourself, RIO and plane and it is the only way to do that, what to do? I think that only a skilled F14 pilot could answer.

The G-limit change was something that happened during the life cycle of the Tomcat. It started at 7.5G and was reduced to 6.5G. I used 6.5G originally after speaking to a friend of mine who flew Tomcats (Snort isn't the only Tomcat pilot in the world, btw). We later found that the initial G-limit from Northrop Grumman was 7.5G, so we changed to that since this model is the early A/B and not later. It's the downside of a game that replicates so many eras.

The Tomcat isn't the only jet with a limit. Every jet gets a 0.5G buffer above the NATOPS/-1 limit. That's not for realism, that's to account for discrepancies and give a little bit of a buffer. Each jet obviously has different specifications for what qualifies as an Over-G in real life.

8G seems reasonable, but i would really like an opinion of a real F14 pilot.

About Tomcat, it seems that graphics and papers don't say all.

 

Also for me realism is important.

The opinion of an F-14 pilot matters not. I'm running this tournament. I've made the decision and given my reasons for it.

The G-limit change was something that happened during the life cycle of the Tomcat. It started at 7.5G and was reduced to 6.5G. I used 6.5G originally after speaking to a friend of mine who flew Tomcats (Snort isn't the only Tomcat pilot in the world, btw). We later found that the initial G-limit from Northrop Grumman was 7.5G, so we changed to that since this model is the early A/B and not later. It's the downside of a game that replicates so many eras.

 

The Tomcat isn't the only jet with a limit. Every jet gets a 0.5G buffer above the NATOPS/-1 limit. That's not for realism, that's to account for discrepancies and give a little bit of a buffer. Each jet obviously has different specifications for what qualifies as an Over-G in real life.

Did they reduced G limit for cheaper maintenance?

The opinion of an F-14 pilot matters not. I'm running this tournament. I've made the decision and given my reasons for it.

It is your tournament so do what you want. But if you want realism, the opinion of an F-14 pilot matters a lot, and if this pilot has almost 5000 hours over an F14, pluridecorated, his opinion matters a lot more.

Did they reduced G limit for cheaper maintenance?

 

They reduced it to increase the life. Same reason other aircraft have had reduced G-limits.

It is your tournament so do what you want. But if you want realism, the opinion of an F-14 pilot matters a lot, and if this pilot has almost 5000 hours over an F14, pluridecorated, his opinion matters a lot more.

But you don't have his opinion. You have extrapolated what you think is his opinion based on an interview. You've never met the man. He is not the only Tomcat pilot.

And there are more aircraft than just the Tomcat in this tournament.

I have a feeling the issue isn't your desire for realism, but not wanting to be held to any standards due to the "god mode" like qualities of flying the Tomcat unrestricted in DCS. :joystick:

G-limits are realistic. That's a universal truth and the Tomcat is not exempt.

They reduced it to increase the life. Same reason other aircraft have had reduced G-limits.

 

 

 

But you don't have his opinion. You have extrapolated what you think is his opinion based on an interview. You've never met the man. He is not the only Tomcat pilot.

 

And there are more aircraft than just the Tomcat in this tournament.

 

I have a feeling the issue isn't your desire for realism, but not wanting to be held to any standards due to the "god mode" like qualities of flying the Tomcat unrestricted in DCS. :joystick:

 

G-limits are realistic. That's a universal truth and the Tomcat is not exempt.

I'm not interested in god mode. My question was what to do in real life to save the life. For example think to dogfight you in an f16 and your enemy in an eurofighter: if necessary, to save your life, you would use over-g or you would respect g limit and die losing also the aircraft? I think that perhaps is better to damage something and not lose all, am i wrong?

7.5 G was the original operational limit the Tomcat was designed for as a carrier operated fighter (hence this is where the EM charts stop), however as purchases were cut short individual airframes had to last longer and thus it was decreased to 6.5 G. However as mentioned the F-14 features the same ultimate load limit as the F-15, which itself was cleared for 9 G due to not having to deal with the daily stresses of carrier operations. So if you're breaking the F-14, then you're breaking the F-15 at the same G as well.

As for how many G's F-14 pilots would pull in combat, I believe that if they felt they needed to pull more than 7.5 G, then they would do it - that's what the majority say themselves atleast.

Keith "Okie" nancy on the subject (he went to 12.5 G, by accident, without any signs of stress damage btw):

I'm not interested in god mode. My question was what to do in real life to save the life. For example think to dogfight you in an f16 and your enemy in an eurofighter: if necessary, to save your life, you would use over-g or you would respect g limit and die losing also the aircraft? I think that perhaps is better to damage something and not lose all, am i wrong?

You have to try REALLY hard and do some REALLY bad BFM to over-G a Viper (I've done it once with an analog FLCS and even then when we counted frames it ended up not qualifying for pulling panels).

You guys don't seem to understand that Over-G'ing the jet can structurally damage it.

You have to try REALLY hard and do some REALLY bad BFM to over-G a Viper (I've done it once with an analog FLCS and even then when we counted frames it ended up not qualifying for pulling panels).

 

You guys don't seem to understand that Over-G'ing the jet can structurally damage it.

I understood over-g could damage aircraft structure and i wrote it. I repeat the question: if necessary, to save your life, you would use over-g or you would respect g limit and die losing also the aircraft? I think that perhaps is better to damage something and not lose all, am i wrong?

I understood over-g could damage aircraft structure and i wrote it. I repeat the question: if necessary, to save your life, you would use over-g or you would respect g limit and die losing also the aircraft? I think that perhaps is better to damage something and not lose all, am i wrong?

As a last ditch, sure. And I've said that. It would not be a going in game plan.

As a last ditch, sure. And I've said that. It would not be a going in game plan.

Thank you for your answer :)