Some questions about the Mirage

Sorry if these are old questions but I'm a little late to the game but I'm thinking of getting this plane...

1) In general, how complete is the overall functionality of the plane? What percent of the functions that the plane is supposed to have are currently working?

2) How good would you say the FM is? Is it the highest fidelity offered - PFM? If so, are there any major issues that still need resolved?

Thanks.

1) In general, how complete is the overall functionality of the plane? What percent of the functions that the plane is supposed to have are currently working?

I would say the plane is pretty close to being functionality complete.

I believe that the radar has a bit of work that needs doing on it (ground display?), the jammer has some implementation things that need to be done (high power mode I believe), and the IR launch detection needs to be done I believe (although it's a subject of debate as to if the plane should have it). I'm not sure of anything else that needs implementing, but most of the functionality is there.

There's a few things that need fixing (magic missiles are currently very bugged, radar isn't great with locks and switching stores), but I believe a lot of patches are coming on Friday.

The devs are great at patching as well as providing updates on progress. Apart from a few bugs that really should have been picked up before patches went live (Magics again, do I sound salty?), the devs have been brilliant. Many people, myself included, would list RAZBAM as the best 3rd party devs for DCS, and as someone who hates preorders, I will be preordering their next plane release.

2) How good would you say the FM is? Is it the highest fidelity offered - PFM? If so, are there any major issues that still need resolved?

The flight model is exceptional. The mirage will outturn anything it comes up against, and it's a joy to fly. There's a few things that I believe need small tweaks, but overall it's an incredible FM.

The mirage is currently my favourite module, and I can't see that changing for quite a while. It's definitely worth picking up.

Thanks so much for your response/enthusiasm and the depth of your answer.

As far a FM goes, I'm not really asking how the plane performs relative to other planes, but rather how close is it to the actual flight characteristics of the real Mirage. When I fly DCS, that's the most important thing to me: ground handling and flight characteristics that rival the real bird... I currently fly the 109, 190, F-5E, Mig21, Mig15, SabreJet because all of these have PFMs (or EFMs which I understand are 3rd party equivalents to DCS PFM)... I have been unable to definitively determine what kind of FM is included with the Mirage (AFM?)...

Thanks again for your help.

I have been unable to definitively determine what kind of FM is included with the Mirage (AFM?)...

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model.

 

You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned.

 

I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here.

 

This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

 

Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering.

 

Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible.

 

Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation!

 

That post is from 2015, but it explains RAZBAMs view on it I believe. I can't speak for how it compares to the real plane.

To add on to my last post - I found this list of missing features -

The IFF is enabled now, although I'm not sure if there's more work to be done on it. Right now it works fine for me.

Air to Air refueling works too I believe, although it may be bugged as to how much fuel you can take on board, which should be fixed soon if it is.

Very helpful. Thanks again for your feedback.

Radar vertical deflection adjustment is done as well, so is pulse frequency selection.

All third party developments use the "External Flight Model" (EFM) which doesn't really tell you anything - just that's external to the DCS code. It does not give any indication as to how accurate it is.

They have obviously put a lot of work into the flight model, but there is a lot of tweaking still happening and sometimes changes to improve accuracy in one regime causes problems in other regimes. My overall 'gut' impression is that there's perhaps more guessing as to what the behaviour ought to be than in some other modules, just due to the nature of the aircraft and difficulty in getting good documentation and people with lots of flight experience in it.

Certainly the intention is to deliver the most accurate and highest quality flight model possible, given the limitations inherit in trying to simulate an actual aircraft on a home PC.

Flight model is a big issue in russian part of this forum. There were some complainers that were pretty much unhappy with the FM at an early stage of the mod, they gathered all inconsistencies in one video (I never actually saw a link to it) and they've spread their impressions on some potential buyers of the mod, which turned them away from buying it.

It would be great if actual or ex- Mirage pilots commented on current FM.

Cause for a russian mind it seems almost impossible for a Mirage to outperform a Mig-29 in a dogfight.

as for myself - I never flew a real Mirage and I don't really dig into all those aerodinamic aspects, turn rates etc. And I'm certainly not a GUNZ-GUNZ-GUNZ-man to talk about those crazy dogfights

The flight model is exceptional. The mirage will outturn anything it comes up against, and it's a joy to fly.

well, I guess this seems to be the biggest problem. Flight model shouldn't be a joy to fly. First of all it should be accurate.

I believe that the radar has a bit of work that needs doing on it (ground display?)

Yes. But if I understood correctly what Zeus said about it, Razbam doesn't intend to develop their own air-to-ground radar, they are waiting for ED to make such a feature available; as ED is doing it for the F/A-18C, it will probably take some time (monthes). As far as I'm concerned, the RDI being mostly an air-to-air radar, I feel I can wait.

the jammer has some implementation things that need to be done (high power mode I believe)

Nope. No such thing.

and the IR launch detection needs to be done I believe (although it's a subject of debate as to if the plane should have it).

Yep.

My overall 'gut' impression is that there's perhaps more guessing as to what the behaviour ought to be than in some other modules, just due to the nature of the aircraft and difficulty in getting good documentation and people with lots of flight experience in it.

I don't think so. Last version of the FM matches a lot of available sources and got praised. There is still a bit of work regarding ground handling (even if it's already much better than before) and auto-pilot, but overall it's on the good path. This FM is probably more difficult than other because it needs a supplementary "layer" of complexity: the aircraft is unstable, and needs FBW to be flown. The CoG was adjusted several weeks ago, but then other linked features needed to be re-done.

It would be great if actual or ex- Mirage pilots commented on current FM.

It would indeed. Probably some did it already, but not on public forums (or not in English) ;)

Cause for a russian mind it seems almost impossible for a Mirage to outperform a Mig-29 in a dogfight.

Well, I hope it's not a matter of national pride, because that wouldn't be the way to go.

Setting this aside, let me write just a few remarks:

1/ Perhaps the most important thing: as of today, the MiG-29 in DCS has a SFM. And the M-2000's EFM is still being tuned (AFAIK not on performances but we never know). So it's not "fair" to try to compare those planes at the moment in DCS. The real comparizon would be much better once the MiG-29 gets its PFM, and once the M-2000's FM is out of beta.

2/ MiG-29 vs F-16 was documented (post Germany reunification); bottom line is MiG can be dangerous in CAC.

3/ M-2000 vs F-16: in CAC, the M-2000 can take quickly advantage due to its better ITR and win. But if the fight continues "too long", the STR and lower thrust of the M-2000 makes the F-16 regain and probably wins.

4/ MiG-29 vs M-2000 is not documented AFAIK; but we can assume that those 3 fighters are in the same league, and that there is no one crushing the other ones. This could be a topic on its own (and I'm sure it was already done on fan-websites around the world, but then again, was national pride set aside? Really not sure ;)).

++

Az'

Yes. But if I understood correctly what Zeus said about it, Razbam doesn't intend to develop their own air-to-ground radar, they are waiting for ED to make such a feature available; as ED is doing it for the F/A-18C, it will probably take some time (monthes). As far as I'm concerned, the RDI being mostly an air-to-air radar, I feel I can wait.

 

 

Nope. No such thing.

 

 

Yep.

 

 

I don't think so. Last version of the FM matches a lot of available sources and got praised. There is still a bit of work regarding ground handling (even if it's already much better than before) and auto-pilot, but overall it's on the good path. This FM is probably more difficult than other because it needs a supplementary "layer" of complexity: the aircraft is unstable, and needs FBW to be flown. The CoG was adjusted several weeks ago, but then other linked features needed to be re-done.

 

 

 

It would indeed. Probably some did it already, but not on public forums (or not in English) ;)

 

 

Well, I hope it's not a matter of national pride, because that wouldn't be the way to go.

Setting this aside, let me write just a few remarks:

1/ Perhaps the most important thing: as of today, the MiG-29 in DCS has a SFM. And the M-2000's EFM is still being tuned (AFAIK not on performances but we never know). So it's not "fair" to try to compare those planes at the moment in DCS. The real comparizon would be much better once the MiG-29 gets its PFM, and once the M-2000's FM is out of beta.

2/ MiG-29 vs F-16 was documented (post Germany reunification); bottom line is MiG can be dangerous in CAC.

3/ M-2000 vs F-16: in CAC, the M-2000 can take quickly advantage due to its better ITR and win. But if the fight continues "too long", the STR and lower thrust of the M-2000 makes the F-16 regain and probably wins.

4/ MiG-29 vs M-2000 is not documented AFAIK; but we can assume that those 3 fighters are in the same league, and that there is no one crushing the other ones. This could be a topic on its own (and I'm sure it was already done on fan-websites around the world, but then again, was national pride set aside? Really not sure ;)).

 

 

++

Az'

I know the Indians did run a few matches between their Fulcrums and Mirages, although the article isn't exactly heavy on the details.

also, you happen to have a link to the mirage pilots view of the FM? (french is perfectly fine)

Last version of the FM matches a lot of available sources and got praised.

who did the tests ?

I can say this:

1. Razbam is by far the most communicative and open of all the devs involved with DCS (including ED of course). On this forum section it seems that you can really discuss doubts, bugs etc. related to the M-2000 without having your thread closed / hijacked etc. This is a great testament to Razbam and how a beta period should really be.

2. I bought the mirage a couple of months ago (I think, time flies!). Every time I see updates to it. Things get fixed, and if something doesn't seem right, you can report it and it will probably be fixed in the next patch.

3. I fly a lot of F-16 in that other sim that can't be named here. I think the Mirage's FM represents pretty well the differences that it has with the F-16, like the higher instantaneous rate of turn, the lower thrust / weight ratio, lower sustained turn rate etc. It is more agile than pretty much every other aircraft in DCS, and at one point I also though "that's too much", but then I fired up the F-16 sim, and was equally stunned about the F-16 performance, being in the same ballpark as the Mirage in DCS. So to me it seems right that these two airplanes fly in a category of their own (FBW) compared to other airplanes in DCS.

4. Regarding the FM, you can be sure that it is a true unstable FM, governed by control laws. There has been a great discussion about relaxed stability, that led Razbam to refine the FM in this direction. Again, very open and receptive dev.

5. There are still some quirks and bugs, not too many form what I can see, but I am very confident we'll end up with a great module, worth every penny.

Flight model is a big issue in russian part of this forum. There were some complainers that were pretty much unhappy with the FM at an early stage of the mod, they gathered all inconsistencies in one video (I never actually saw a link to it) and they've spread their impressions on some potential buyers of the mod, which turned them away from buying it.

It would be great if actual or ex- Mirage pilots commented on current FM.

Cause for a russian mind it seems almost impossible for a Mirage to outperform a Mig-29 in a dogfight.

 

as for myself - I never flew a real Mirage and I don't really dig into all those aerodinamic aspects, turn rates etc. And I'm certainly not a GUNZ-GUNZ-GUNZ-man to talk about those crazy dogfights

 

well, I guess this seems to be the biggest problem. Flight model shouldn't be a joy to fly. First of all it should be accurate.

could i have a link?

If anything, an accurate FM is mutually exclusive with it being a joy to fly right?

could i have a link?

to what ?

If anything, an accurate FM is mutually exclusive with it being a joy to fly right?

no

what I was trying to say is that "a joy to fly" is not the best description for quality of a digitally simulated FM. Lock On Flaming Cliffs' SFMs are a great joy to fly !

Nope. No such thing.

Is this wrong then? Are we not getting the PCM mode, or is the guide wrong?

Is this wrong then? Are we not getting the PCM mode, or is the guide wrong?

Probably just a technical difference in terminology. It just allows the jammer to emit more often (to the detriment of the radar), but does not increase its power.

But, I don't think there's any reasonable possibility to simulate this in DCS at present. At least, not in terms of making the jammer "more effective". So if this was implemented, it would really be a "make my radar perform worse for no benefit" switch at best.

Cause for a russian mind it seems almost impossible for a Mirage to outperform a Mig-29 in a dogfight.

4/ MiG-29 vs M-2000 is not documented AFAIK; but we can assume that those 3 fighters are in the same league, and that there is no one crushing the other ones. This could be a topic on its own (and I'm sure it was already done on fan-websites around the world, but then again, was national pride set aside? Really not sure ;)).

The Indian Air Force conducted tests of the MiG-29 vs. Mirage 2000 in 1988. The conclusion from that test was the MiG-29 outperformed the Mirage in every way. I can't find the link to the exact source but I remember reading it sometime back.

Air Marshal rtd, Harish Masand, then Wing Commander and CO of First Supersonics (MiG-29 squadron) versus the No.1 Tigers squadron led by then Wing Commander Ahluwahlia (later Air Marshal).

Evaluation in 1988:

MiG-29 outperformed the Mirage 2000 in "every sphere", parameters mentioned: STR, ITR, climb (climb rate). Range to payload of Mirage 2000 better, but MiG-29 and Mirage consumed almost the same amount of fuel in combat situations as the latter had to use afterburner more often.

Group combat and role specific missions: "Radar, IRST, HMSD, voice information system put to good use".

The Indian Air Force conducted tests of the MiG-29 vs. Mirage 2000 in 1988. The conclusion from that test was the MiG-29 outperformed the Mirage in every way. I can't find the link to the exact source but I remember reading it sometime back.

There were, apparently, quite a few details that needed to be mentioned. I have read that Article, and its not exactly a fair matchup, according to some, the Mirage squadron was one that was used in the nuclear bombing role (which is the primary role of IAF Mirage squadrons) where the pilots had little A2A training, severely impacting its ability to fight a dedicated A2A squadron on even grounds.

hence, that article can hardly be taken as a definitive proof.

and IMHO, any complaining should not be done based on its performance compared to another aircraft, but to the performace of the aircraft IRL.

according to some, the Mirage squadron was one that was used in the nuclear bombing role (which is the primary role of IAF Mirage squadrons) where the pilots had little A2A training, severely impacting its ability to fight a dedicated A2A squadron on even grounds.

hence, that article can hardly be taken as a definitive proof.

Well, for your information, the squadron in question is the No. 1 Tiger Squadron of the IAF. They are a multirole squadron tasked with air superiority, precision strike, and electronic warfare capabilities. So you can't just dismiss it easily.

and IMHO, any complaining should not be done based on its performance compared to another aircraft, but to the performace of the aircraft IRL.

Again, I'm not complaining, I'm just providing some facts that are out there in response to previous posters.