CCRP unguided bombs

hi guys,

is it normal in CCRP mode that

MK-83 hits the target (not in precission)

MK-82 are too long

MK-84 too short ??

or is CCRP mode only for guided bombs ?

AUTO is still buggy, the 83 are still your best bet for this. I find even in CCIP the 83 are the better choice.

here is a test track

i was wondering that the 82er are not too long :)

CCRP-MK-Test.trk

The higher you are, the larger the error will be with unguided munitions. It is best to use CCIP at altitude. CCRP will work fine when low and using a high drag bomb.

If anyone has watched 'Jetstream', I'm always interested to know why they use 'AUTO' mode from about 15,000-18,000 and dive down to release at about 8-12,000 in a 45 degree angle? It almost seems like they do a CCIP run but in 'AUTO'. You would think that CCIP would be a better option in this sort of profile. Am I missing something here?

The program also goes to great lengths to explain the speed and angle needed which isn't really a massive consideration in AUTO as the computer is basically giving you a calculated release point.

If anyone has watched 'Jetstream', I'm always interested to know why they use 'AUTO' mode from about 15,000-18,000 and dive down to release at about 8-12,000 in a 45 degree angle? It almost seems like they do a CCIP run but in 'AUTO'. You would think that CCIP would be a better option in this sort of profile. Am I missing something here?

The program also goes to great lengths to explain the speed and angle needed which isn't really a massive consideration in AUTO as the computer is basically giving you a calculated release point.

CCIP relys on the pilot to hit the pickle button at exactly the right time. Auto pickles for you at the exact perfect time, as long as you can fly the ASL accurately AUTO will be more consistent against a target that is pre-designated.

CCIP relys on the pilot to hit the pickle button at exactly the right time. Auto pickles for you at the exact perfect time, as long as you can fly the ASL accurately AUTO will be more consistent against a target that is pre-designated.

Understood. But in that case, why roll in on the target at 45 degrees dive and 450knots.

Wouldn't a level delivery be just as effective?

Understood. But in that case, why roll in on the target at 45 degrees dive and 450knots.

 

 

 

Wouldn't a level delivery be just as effective?

Dive delivery profiles are more accurate. Simple.

Remember AUTO and CCIP are merely ‘aiming’ mechanisms. You can completely separate them from the ‘profile’ used, be it level, dive, loft etc.

Too many people assume AUTO is level and CCIP dive, which is not always the case. In AUTO youre using a defined target position and that will be far more accurate than CCIP in most cases.

^ That.

In DCS a lot of people have come to the conclusion that CCIP = more accurate because you put the thing on the thing and hit the button and off comes a bomb. The thing is, in DCS most people fly at VERY low altitudes, and a lot of people struggle to fly the ASL precisely in AUTO mode (which is obviously crucial to getting good accuracy in AUTO). In reality most fighters aren't pickling bombs at 5000' these days, they are doing it at 15000-20000' to stay above the numerous serious threats.

If you did a comparison of Mk83 deliveries from 20k'+ CCIP vs AUTO you would start to see the benefits of AUTO (Level, Dive, Loft, etc). It gets real hard to put the CCIP cross on a precise target and hit the button at precisely the right time when you are at 20k'+, when as long as you can fly the ASL precisely, all you have to do is hold down the pickle button for a few seconds as the cue drops and the aircraft performs a very accurate release. It's still a dumb bomb from 20000', you shouldn't expect super precision, but I've found it's much more *consistent* than CCIP from high altitude (I've scored insanely good hits in CCIP from high altitudes as well, but they are the exception not the rule).

From what someone already replied to me a while ago, CCRP/AUTO is usualy used for area target, most of time pre-defined before take-off, bigger targets, like building and such, due to the less precise, or of course with laser guided, as it track the laser. Going for a CCRP/AUTO run for a tank and drop the bomb at 15 000 ft, chances it'll miss by offseting, specialy if windy a lot i presume. Or also, using High-Drag delieveries benefits from it, since it's lower altitude so less offseting.

CCIP is more precise, cuz it's done diving, so less lateral seperation, les horizontal chances of being draged off, and you pretty much give it a push. CCIP bombs dive in more step, les drag surfaces i think

But agian, that's how i see it.

AFAIK, most bombs release in Desert Storm (by the USMC F/A-18s I should add) were in AUTO mode, with HUD designation, and at various altitudes (they released rather high at first, then got lower as the campaign went on). And they seemed to like it pretty good.

AUTO is used 99.9% of the time IRL. (The 0.1% is for a bit of variety in training)

For guided munitions, AUTO is used 100% of the time.

then i must say, that the accuracy of unguided bombs may be wrong ...

depends on the MK8x the point should be the same in the near of the target point ...

or is the pilot responsible to take care of the type of MK8x munition ?

and how should they do it with AUTO mode ?

From what someone already replied to me a while ago, CCRP/AUTO is usualy used for area target, most of time pre-defined before take-off, bigger targets, like building and such, due to the less precise, or of course with laser guided, as it track the laser. Going for a CCRP/AUTO run for a tank and drop the bomb at 15 000 ft, chances it'll miss by offseting, specialy if windy a lot i presume. Or also, using High-Drag delieveries benefits from it, since it's lower altitude so less offseting.

 

 

 

CCIP is more precise, cuz it's done diving, so less lateral seperation, les horizontal chances of being draged off, and you pretty much give it a push. CCIP bombs dive in more step, les drag surfaces i think

 

 

But agian, that's how i see it.

Yup, CCRP is great for "INS" bombing, where you know the exact coordinates of the target. With regard to wind, depending on the aircraft, the bombing computer can use INS calculated drift can "kind-of" compensate for the wind, or other sensors can (ARBS on the Harrier, Radar on the hornet) based on the relative motion of the target to the plane. But in general high altitude unguided bomb delivery generally gives you slightly better than WW2 era accuracy using either CCIP or CCRP. Which is why everyone moved to PGM's to hit targets smaller than "aspirin factories".

At low level CCRP can actually be great if you accurately pick your target point, this is currently not easy to do with the hornet but once it gets the Tpod or its surface radar it should be way better.

then i must say, that the accuracy of unguided bombs may be wrong ...

 

depends on the MK8x the point should be the same in the near of the target point ...

 

or is the pilot responsible to take care of the type of MK8x munition ?

and how should they do it with AUTO mode ?

I think the current issue is with using the Hud to designate targets for auto bombing, its not precise at all in the hornet at the moment. I think once the TPOD or ground radar gets added it will be fine.

I've found that using F10 Map, the coords are off enough to render CCRP useless. Despite the mouse being directly over the target. And CBUs are nearly worthless beyond 50ft.

What are you guys trying to hit? a tank from 15K feet with a dumb bomb?

Whether CCIP/AUTO, you're going ot have a tough time at that altitute. a tank is big, but still a 30ft long thing. I don't think you're going to be 30 feet accurate from 15K feet... I'm not sure if DCS calculates this, but winds change from ground to 15K (and up). if winds are 125/45 at 15K feet, chances are at 3K it's 080/5

I would assume that AUTO/DTOSS is great for a predetermined target at altitude and CCIP great for smaller object that release point is at a much lower atltitue.

I'm just speculating. I suck with auto with small targets. I suck with CCIP too. thank god for LGBs lol

I've found that using F10 Map, the coords are off enough to render CCRP useless. Despite the mouse being directly over the target. And CBUs are nearly worthless beyond 50ft.

So you are generating a waypoint from the F10 map and using that as your target point?

What are you guys trying to hit? a tank from 15K feet with a dumb bomb?

 

Whether CCIP/AUTO, you're going ot have a tough time at that altitute. a tank is big, but still a 30ft long thing. I don't think you're going to be 30 feet accurate from 15K feet... I'm not sure if DCS calculates this, but winds change from ground to 15K (and up). if winds are 125/45 at 15K feet, chances are at 3K it's 080/5

 

I would assume that AUTO/DTOSS is great for a predetermined target at altitude and CCIP great for smaller object that release point is at a much lower atltitue.

 

I'm just speculating. I suck with auto with small targets. I suck with CCIP too. thank god for LGBs lol

I've used CCRP at low level against tanks/APC's, mainly using CBU's, but once in a while a Mk82. The biggest issue for me is actually putting the TDC on the target accurately.

Buildings and such are no problem from a few thousand up I've killed many "aspirin factories" in training. Haven't tried 15k though.

So you are generating a waypoint from the F10 map and using that as your target point?

Yes Sir

I've used CCRP at low level against tanks/APC's, mainly using CBU's, but once in a while a Mk82. The biggest issue for me is actually putting the TDC on the target accurately.

 

Buildings and such are no problem from a few thousand up I've killed many "aspirin factories" in training. Haven't tried 15k though.

I agree. That doesn't help either. when we have ground radar (I think GMT? for ground moving target) it will be much easier to pick a target with EXP modes etc

One stil has tto remember that it's a dumb bomb though, it's going to move around based on wind etc. (and movement of target)

Yes Sir

you know i never tried this. I think this will be used on F14 etc as well. I need to play around with this.

If I may elaborate a bit. Using F10 on a set range of targets for practice. The tanks are static. I hover over and copy the coords into my jet as a WP. At first it was to get an area, for CBU use. But as I've discovered, they're still WIP and dont cover beyond 50ft, and no matter what you set the VT to.

So using the same coords, I was going to try CCRP with the Mk83 to plink tanks. But the input conversion is off on the final numbers so the impact point is misaligned.

I agree. That doesn't help either. when we have ground radar (I think GMT? for ground moving target) it will be much easier to pick a target with EXP modes etc

 

One stil has tto remember that it's a dumb bomb though, it's going to move around based on wind etc. (and movement of target)

Yeah it "should" be easier with an actual ground radar or tpod. As for wind/movement, many bomb computers at least try to compensate for those factors. I'm not familiar with the hornet one though.

If I may elaborate a bit. Using F10 on a set range of targets for practice. The tanks are static. I hover over and copy the coords into my jet as a WP. At first it was to get an area, for CBU use. But as I've discovered, they're still WIP and dont cover beyond 50ft, and no matter what you set the VT to.

 

So using the same coords, I was going to try CCRP with the Mk83 to plink tanks. But the input conversion is off on the final numbers so the impact point is misaligned.

Ah so you are doing this dynamically while in flight with the map? I've never tried that. Just for "practice" I have just dropped a waypoint directly on a static tank/building target and that works better than using the HUD TDC.

As for the CBU's just make sure you release them high enough (3k+ above target). I thought the rockeyes on the harrier were pretty bad but it turned out to be user error and I was releasing them too low, they are fixed for a 1800ft above target release on the harrier.