Spitfire first take-off; first "landing" observations

The greatest observation I had yesterday was the first time I managed to... watch a saved track properly, with cold start, takeoff & landing.

 

Either they fixed track recording in update 5, or there was something different in my pre-flight procedure, but at last it's good to watch a correctly synced replay and evaluate all good and bad things about my takeoffs and landings.

That's encouraging.

I'll check out saving a track today and hope it covers the whole takeoff and landing sequence and not put me into a field somewhere at lawndart angles.

It seems my Replays start running out of convergence if I drive the bird into the meadow (as I always do ;)).

There I need much more RPM as on the concrete to bring it back to the lane.

In replay I watch me (smooth) throtteling up, but the bird don't move until I reached (in real) the RWY and give full throttle (for take off in real at the RWY). In replay the bird stucks still in the grass till it starts rushing into the next obstacle.

Maybe there is a context with my low 10 FPS inside the cockpit (F1 view) while my rig reaches close to 100 FPS in F2 ... F4 views.

If someone's interested in: I append such a missfortune here :)

3 attempt Spit crash.trk

A takeoff around the pattern to a full stop landing.

I've changed my take off procedure. It is much like the 109, back on the stick with right aileron at initial run up as wind gets over the controls I ease off the aileron and back pressure.

I'm quicker on the throttle up to get air on the rudder but not fast enough to torque roll the plane.

I'm using more power on the take off.

At first I was at boot 6 now I'm up to Boost 8

Youtube vid.

That's encouraging.

I'll check out saving a track today and hope it covers the whole takeoff and landing sequence and not put me into a field somewhere at lawndart angles.

Just a heads up, today, none of my numerous track saving and playback attempts work, neither does the very track which played so perfectly yesterday. Oh for F[..] sake... The issue is most likely related to the way brakes and rudder position get recorded, but I haven't quite narrowed it down yet.

After almost 5 hours in the Spit I am making some pretty darn good takeoffs now with 0 assist. I absolutely love flying this plane around, doing aerobatics with it. It may end up being my favorite WWII bird but probably should try the P-51 a little more as well.

Landings still need some work, getting her set down is going fairly well but eventually stopped without dragging a wingtip is still a challenge for me lol.

So looking forward to Normandy.

Take-off doesn't seem much different from Bf-109, except that you have to be very careful at the beginning of the run, before the rudder is effective. I start the run at 3000 RPM so the rudder becomes effective real quick.

I hate taxying the thing with the weird combination of brake right + direction. When I taxi on the runway or a wide taxiway I run it fast enough for the rudder to be effective; that's easier. Visibility on the ground is just as bad as the Bf-109 and FW-190 due to the big nose, so that's a wash.

What I cannot believe is that the tail wheel can't be locked; that would make all ground movements so much easier incl. take-off and landing! Am I missing something? I did some landing exercises with the Bf-109 today; and when I didn't lock the tail wheel, the landing usually ended in a "pirouette" (or worse).

In flight she is lovely, and with correct trim I can take the hands off the stick for quite a while. I can't do that with the Bf-109 or the FW-190 as they lack the rudder trim.

What I cannot believe is that the tail wheel can't be locked

But it is right, according to real Spitfire pilot whom i asked. There is no lock.

My takeoffs are almost spot on now. Landings always result in a ground loop no matter what I do. :(

My takeoffs are almost spot on now. Landings always result in a ground loop no matter what I do. :(

It is tricky. Have you tried stick hard back once airspeed has been lost? Also braking only near the end when slow and again dancing on the pedals.

The take off roll is very short, it caught me by surprise and I barely managed to keep it aloft and out of a stall.

It's a joy to fly, very responsive and very sensitive to input. In future I will have to trim a lot more to tame her a little.

My first landing was very bouncy but got her down safely, you have to really avoid any slip, which I didn't. Got her down though after a couple of bounces. Going to have to work on reducing slip and maintaining the correct approach speed with her.

For takeoff, the throttle should be run up to +7 to +9 boost in about six seconds. With proper elevator trim, she will lift off by herself.

 

I set my takeoff elevator trim to the center position on the indicator.

I'm having problems with the take-off, I have the assist and rudders set to (0) but no matter how I advance the throttle, and the plane gets to rolling and starts to veer, I correct with rudder input and the right wing wants to dip as if I'm applying aileron input but I'm not, trying to use rudder to correct just makes matter worst, any Idea's as to what I might be doing wrong? This is during the training mission, Taxi/Take-off. If I can stop the wing from dipping I'll be ok, easier said than done. Thanks TC

You pretty much have to stay ahead of it, anticipating what it is going to do while dancing lightly on the rudder. If it starts to veer significantly and then try to correct likely a wing will drop.

As I start my takeoff roll - pretty much as I reach +8 boost, I start dancing lightly with gentle left rudder inputs - very gentle but rapid. Holding full back stick at the time until I build up some speed.

I'm having problems with the take-off, I have the assist and rudders set to (0) but no matter how I advance the throttle, and the plane gets to rolling and starts to veer, I correct with rudder input and the right wing wants to dip as if I'm applying aileron input but I'm not, trying to use rudder to correct just makes matter worst, any Idea's as to what I might be doing wrong? This is during the training mission, Taxi/Take-off. If I can stop the wing from dipping I'll be ok, easier said than done. Thanks TC

- when entering the runway, make sure to roll few meters straight

- brake to stop, hold on the brake

- push a bit of right rudder, stick ~1/3 to the right

- rev up to ~4 boost,

- release brakes, rev up to ~8 boost, rather slowly, withing ~2-3 sec

- maintain alignment with the runway using rudder, try to avoid using the brakes

- as you gain up speed slowly bring the stick from right to center

Then again, the most important thing is to practice. Create a mission with Spit hot on runway to save some time. Good luck :thumbup:

Edit: it's not how it's stated in the manual but personally for take off, I only trim the rudder a bit to the right - more or less so that the letter "R" from "rudder" is at 12.

Dear Friends of the Forum, I need your help.

I am having serious difficulties with the takeoff.

Please, can someone send me a TRK a nice takeoff? I would like to see how you do.

Thank you.

Have a look at this video of a RL SpitIX flight. Quite interesting. I watched it several times and gleaned some notes from it (see below).

I think our SpitIX needs some tweaking/damping in directional stability?

==============================

Observations:-

Taxi:

-6lbs, Trim0, prop fully fine

Rudder/brake input as necessary, typically showing turn rate 2 on the rate of turn indicator, using brakes and rudder

(Watch the video Turn indicator, up to ± 2 to 3 needle deflection with not much dancing)

Takeoff:

Trim 0, fully fine (I have been using -0.5 grad trim)

Power up from -6lbs to +6lbs (8-10 secs). passing 0 lbs around 5 secs achieving 2800rpm

Quick firm but small rudder inputs as necessary.

(Watch video Turn indicator, ± 1.5 needle deflection with some dancing)

Push tail up at 60mph and hold

Lift off at 120mph

Brake wheels and raise u/c.

Trim to level flight.

Flight observations:

+7lbs, 2650rpm, 260-300mph level flight, Trim -1 grad

0lbs, 2000rpm, 200-220mph level flight, Trim 0.

Landing:

-6lbs, fully fine, achieves 2200rpm at higher speeds.

Speed/rpm bleeds off.

@160mph Gear down, small backpressure, Trim out to approx +0.75 grads (I am finding it necessary to go to about 1 grad)

@140mph, Flaps down, larger backpressure, Trim out to +1.25 grads (I have found it necessary to go to +2 grads and still have some weight in my hand)

Into Base leg -6lbs at 110mph, 2200rpm

Into finals holding 100mph, 1800rpm, no Trim changes, bleeding speed

Threshold 90mph, bleeding speed, rudder and aileron as necessary

80mph stick back for 3-point landing, rudder and aileron as necessary

Touchdown 70mph.

Stick well back, much rudder input (dancing) as necessary on roll out

Rollout:

Allow Speed to bleed off with quick firm rudder inputs as necessary

(Watch video Turn indicator, up to full needle deflection with dancing)

Use brakes with rudder only at lower speeds.

Flaps up asap.

Return trim to 0 when convenient.

================================

Thanks Klem.

Whew - Finally after 8 hours in the Spit, I am making some very decent takeoffs and landings! Wow what a learning curve for me in this plane, but I do so love it!

It was very rewarding to finally get to where I can takeoff and land this great bird in one piece. Chuck Owl's great guide was a huge help for me as well.

Now the real challenge, to see if I can fly combat in this thing lol.

Congrats dburne, Iv mastered taking off, but landing, I still have to keep practicing. It is fun learning though. :)

Hey Bravo,

Regards the landings, if the trouble you're having is with dropping a wingtip just after touchdown (which was the what both I and my squad mates were consistently finding at first) try rotating into the flare at a lower altitude.

If you have come to DCS from other WW2 sims the 1st person camera lens is very different and thusly your visual cues - as such the perception of altitude around the landing phase is significantly different. You end up feeling like you're lower than you actually are.

What I see is other players end up in the three point attitude waiting to settle at 10+ feet! Way too high. They then drop in with too much energy and throw a wing down.

As soon as I made the conscious effort to override the instinct fostered from years of other flight sims and adopt a lower altitude for the flare it got a whole lot easier.

My problem at taxi, take off and landing is the quiet sensitive bird to the controls. Touching the wingtips to the ground is the merest problem I encounter :)

I have a long way to go to find the right curvature of controls (rudder, brakes and aileron) and will need a lot (means really: a lot) of training for not oversteering to keep the AC "on track". Trying to compensate the torque impact of engine and screw are most challenging. Also handicap makes lack of direct feedback of controls.

Pilot induced oscillations are my worst problem at the moment.

DD_Fenrir, Thanks for the advice Buddy, will give it a go. :)

Edit: Thanks DD_Fenrir, Iv got it now, I can land now. I owe you Buddy.:thumbup:

well...i really dont have much practice with the spit. i do have enough practice with the other ww2 birds though, so people who still struggle don't take my post as snobbish, but just as an advice...up until today, i also had some trouble with the spit, first i thought its me being used to using conventional differential brakes...while that is probably partially true, the thing that really changed things immediately for me, was to put the brakes-lever on an axis..before, i had it mapped to a button, but setting it onto an axis solved really all problems. i actually think, the spit is quite a lot easier than the 109 without locked tail-wheel. thats particular true for field landings. its really forgiving and doesnt have such a jumpy tailwheel like the 109. also it withstands quite some slip, whereas the 109 usually tilts the wings(109 without locked tailwheel). even two pointers are quite easy, as the rudder is way more effective than that of the 109...have a look at my quite dirty two pointer in the fields. really not the best landing, but the trusty spit brought my pilot back in one piece...again, whats really important, is to map the brakes to an axis. mapping it to a button has the issue, that if you release the button, the release of the brake is delayed, and its still braking even if you think you dont. with an axis, that issue is not existent.

well...i really dont have much practice with the spit. i do have enough practice with the other ww2 birds though, so people who still struggle don't take my post as snobbish, but just as an advice...up until today, i also had some trouble with the spit, first i thought its me being used to using conventional differential brakes...while that is probably partially true, the thing that really changed things immediately for me, was to put the brakes-lever on an axis..before, i had it mapped to a button, but setting it onto an axis solved really all problems. i actually think, the spit is quite a lot easier than the 109 without locked tail-wheel. thats particular true for field landings. its really forgiving and doesnt have such a jumpy tailwheel like the 109. also it withstands quite some slip, whereas the 109 usually tilts the wings(109 without locked tailwheel). even two pointers are quite easy, as the rudder is way more effective than that of the 109...have a look at my quite dirty two pointer in the fields. really not the best landing, but the trusty spit brought my pilot back in one piece...again, whats really important, is to map the brakes to an axis. mapping it to a button has the issue, that if you release the button, the release of the brake is delayed, and its still braking even if you think you dont. with an axis, that issue is not existent.

This, +20k

I'm using wheel brake on an axis for all my birds using such differential braking since I own the Mig21, never regretted this setup.

I tried a few days ago to go back on brake-on-a-button to try helping a flight mate and see how it felt for him, it was a nightmare. Wheel brake on an axis is a game changer

DD_Fenrir, Thanks for the advice Buddy, will give it a go. :)

 

Edit: Thanks DD_Fenrir, Iv got it now, I can land now. I owe you Buddy.:thumbup:

Fantastic! Glad to be of help Good also to know that I'm not talking out of my posterior (a not unknown occurrence)....

...again, whats really important, is to map the brakes to an axis. mapping it to a button has the issue, that if you release the button, the release of the brake is delayed, and its still braking even if you think you dont. with an axis, that issue is not existent.

Mapping brakes to a button? What a strange idea.

On my bicycle I use a stick for braking: if I drive too fast I just put it into the spokes. That simple.