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Red Flag - Aggressor PVP August


IronMike

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After I cooled down from being slightly triggered by the red ATC breaking the rules in the endgame and on top of that calling BRAs which were just available due to godseye view in gamemaster and wouldn't even have been provided by radar or other means, I got to say it was a very nice event.

 

I enjoyed the complexer a2g objectives which actually required some decent flying around the map. I liked especially that it wasnt just straight point A to point B and just truck enough ordnance over to win but it was actually a lot of spread, diverse objectives.

 

Also the different kind of taskings at each location made making choices about which ship in the viggen flight was going to load what kind of ordnance an interesting process.

 

I also enjoyed the 4hour mission time over the usual 2 or 3. While with a 2 hour limitation the event is over very fast and there is barely enough time to make strategy in the large scale work, in the 4 hour event we were able to do 5 sorties with various approaches.

 

 

In the end it was a little meh, that even after Dackster and me pushed for the runway cratering run and succeeded with it despite no fighter cover on station and one Viggen lost after bomb release, it was open to redfor again later on.

I am pretty sure it just got lost in the heat of the battle and since Eagle and Flanker do not interact with runway craters. For the future it would be nice if bombed runways actually are inspected and a decision to close the runway entirely or in parts is made. Emergency landing aircrafts might be considered unfit for further service during the mission or the pilot has to respawn at the remote homebase.

This would for once make runway bombing a viable tool tactically, despite the extreme limitations within DCS in that regard atm, and at the same time would put emphasis on road-operable and or VTOL platforms.

 

Illustration of how close to loosing the frames we went with that runway strike on kutaisi as a last ditch before our CAP collapsed pretty much:

3ddc53b9f652ef3852a948fa350fb43f.png

 

For the short noticed briefing I actually enjoyed it a lot. It made for very interesting flights since there was no time to do extensive evaluation of possible target location terrain beforehand, conduct heavy testing in terms of stores effectiveness.

We got the briefing, we decided who did go with which loadout and from then on we had to make due with what the avionics and stores made possible and then work with the situation we found to be in place.

I personally enjoyed this a lot.

On the same page 2 lives especially for strike missions were a welcome addition to the setup since strike missions in a war scenario are always pretty high risk operations.

 

Overall it was a very nice event and a very promising step for a2g operations. On the fun scale I would probably rate it the highest for any redflag this year yet. 17-3 was for me personally a hell of a ride but didn't reach the depth of immersion in the scenario. 17-6 was high ranking overall as well but again was very prepared and the target site was apart from bugs interfering relatively straight forward.

For a2g this event really set a benchmark in richness and even for a2a I would say the dynamics of changing airfields on the fly is something new I would have probably enjoyed.

 

S!

Coordinating the A2G flights was very fun and they responded to my mission requests really rapidly. So a big thank you to all strikers. MicroVax and other viggens did a fantastic job on the ultra-risky SEAD missions, the CAS action on pop up enemy convoy was also very fun to watch.

 

Also, my squad mates in the A-10 A2G flight told me they had a lot of fun flying with Lt.Hicks and others, I had some trouble persuading my squad mates to fly the A-10 because they were concerned that lack of previous coordination with non-NP pilots might make A2G mission very difficult. It turned out Lt.Hicks and his pals are pros and it was a great fun hunting together with them.

Fiscally conservative A-10c ace.

Prefers GAU-8 in every situation.

Saving taxpayer dollars, millions at a time.

 

VF-6666 =NP= Squadron CAS Flight Lead

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It is all good Coxy, your appology has been accepted right on the spot after the briefing, and there is no need to step down for you. What I wrote I wrote more to have a clear line on that for future events. All I can say for now, Coxy, is thank you for being ATC 4 hrs straight. You are very much welcome back to it, if you enjoyed it!

 

As for the BRAA requests, that is also something I will deal with internally. Ma' boys usually dont behave like that, if it was members from the 104th. It goes without saying that not only ATC and GCI have to follow these rules, but also the pilots MUST support him by not constantly requesting stuff that isnt allowed.

 

To all the rest, glad you enjoyed it. Watch the impressions video, some of you (by coincidence and luck) made it in prominantly! (like your crash when you tried to land at Kutaisi, Rush, thinking it was Senakhi lolol)

 

S!

 

I didn't ask for any BRAA and I haven't heard any from any of us either. No idea about the rest of the groups in red. To be honest there was basically next to no coordination between squads on red, which suited the mission this time.

 

Even the ATC felt very awkward and more of a burden than a benefit because I felt as if neither of the pilots had a clue on how to do it right. I'm confident this will improve over time if we continue with it, but it was pretty detrimental for whole redfor to be grounded for more than 15 minutes on Tbilisi just because the rest of the planes were still arriving. Especially considering the airfield has 2 runways.

 

I think this ATC vs GCI was a bit unclear, also I recall Mike saying ATC would only see friendly aircraft (guess not). I landed on Kutaisi without any contact to ATC as I thought it makes no sense in hell to ask Tbilisi ATC for a different airfield. Suddenly all I hear is Coxy yelling at me :D

 

Overall it was quite fun.

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On behalf of my squadron, i would like to thank the 104th Phoenix VFBS, specially Ironmike for putting together a mission at such a short notice. It was our second outing in such an event and we enjoyed it thoroughly !! Further Yoda & Moltar did a commendable job as Airboss & ATC in such a high pressure environment. In our squadron's analysis there were couple of points which proved detrimental towards the victory for the blue.

 

1. The cool of time for the blue pilots after ejection & death(10,20 min). The reds were able to take off immediately after their death and provide CAP thereby reinforcing their no. again in short time whereas the blues who were operating in a group of 4 were left to fend off the attack with lower no. at a great distance.

2. Since reds had greater no. of pilots (specially the 104th) who had flown together previously and were aware of the general tactics of the squadron (cadets or regular) were able to put it in action with comparatively more ease.

 

Both sides had good pilots. Kudos to the strikers and helis in the blue side who carried out their mission without any CAP support. In the hindsight, valuable lessons have been learnt about interoperability of the squadrons and people in general. Looking forward to more of such events

 

Regards,

Regards



№15 | Verticle Charlie

Commanding Officer

No. 15 " Battle Axes "

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I didn't ask for any BRAA and I haven't heard any from any of us either. No idea about the rest of the groups in red. To be honest there was basically next to no coordination between squads on red, which suited the mission this time.

 

Even the ATC felt very awkward and more of a burden than a benefit because I felt as if neither of the pilots had a clue on how to do it right. I'm confident this will improve over time if we continue with it, but it was pretty detrimental for whole redfor to be grounded for more than 15 minutes on Tbilisi just because the rest of the planes were still arriving. Especially considering the airfield has 2 runways.

 

I think this ATC vs GCI was a bit unclear, also I recall Mike saying ATC would only see friendly aircraft (guess not). I landed on Kutaisi without any contact to ATC as I thought it makes no sense in hell to ask Tbilisi ATC for a different airfield. Suddenly all I hear is Coxy yelling at me :D

 

Overall it was quite fun.

 

Yea most were running out of Tiblsi, As for aircraft on the ground, Some reasons were held to that, With aircraft low on fuel, I believe one even came back damaged, I did start to use the smaller runway at Tiblsi towards the end (I did not know if we could use it or not) Which i guess helped blue a little more as we was restricted on one runway, I have to say none 104th asked for BRAA, However i do not remember who did early on. Kutasisi was over run at some points and i did not expect anyone to land there.

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Yea most were running out of Tiblsi, As for aircraft on the ground, Some reasons were held to that, With aircraft low on fuel, I believe one even came back damaged, I did start to use the smaller runway at Tiblsi towards the end (I did not know if we could use it or not) Which i guess helped blue a little more as we was restricted on one runway, I have to say none 104th asked for BRAA, However i do not remember who did early on. Kutasisi was over run at some points and i did not expect anyone to land there.

 

I meant at the start. Everyone ferried from Kutaisi ASAP and when we landed I remember Stuge and his wingman took off and everyone else was stuck on the ground waiting :D

 

As for the rest I had no idea but I'm sure everything had a reason. It was hilarious and unnerving at the same time to hold on pattern for 5+ minutes with < 1k lbs fuel. I was going to fly one more circle and land regardless if you gave me the go or not. :D

 

Next time we will have these experiences to help and also probably more time to plan. You did great, regardless.

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FYI reds also had to wait 10/20 minutes after being shot down. Every 104th kept that rule' date=' I cannot speak for the rest.[/quote']

 

Well i did see pilot getting shot and taking the A/c immediately. Must have waited on ground then because we went to spectators after getting shot to avoid any confusion. !!!

Regards



№15 | Verticle Charlie

Commanding Officer

No. 15 " Battle Axes "

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That's entirely possible. Guess a more clear set of rules is in order.. :)

 

The rules were pretty clear. But I guess we will do a pilot's jail for the next round, lol, a channel folks have to wait in before returning.

 

Overall to run these events super correctly we'd need more ppl, which in summer is difficult. usually we have one admin only concerned with stuff like that, but this time this wasn't possible.

 

However to my knowledge, no immediate restarts happend, folks held to the rules quite nicely. In these events everyone always holds very nicely to the ruleset and does a lot to keep the best standards he can deliver. I am really proud of all of you, so far we never had problems.

 

Keep that up, guys.

 

S!

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Well, I'll say for myself that even tho I did a pilot error and crashed myself out, without being pressured by an engagement I did wait 20mins

 

And the other thing is. Yeah, you did bomb Kutaisi, and YES it did have effect on the planes, the bombing wasn't good enough, I was able to land from E to W and slow down almost completely by the time I reached the bombed part :)

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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And the other thing is. Yeah, you did bomb Kutaisi, and YES it did have effect on the planes, the bombing wasn't good enough, I was able to land from E to W and slow down almost completely by the time I reached the bombed part :)

 

I do not know what gives you the impression of "wasn't good enough".

 

First you gotta clear airfield of possible mines and duds. Thats going to take forever, especially if most of your local forces just got destroyed and you got to bring in special equipment and personal to clear that.

 

Then you got runway and bomb fragments and soil spread over more then half the airport, mainly runway. You got to clear that before you operate any kind of turbine engine aircraft just because of FOD.

 

Yes by the time you have done that on an unprotected airport you may use the rest of the runway again. The bombing wasnt perfect, Dackster didnt release all stores and we should have bombed closer to the middle of the strip. But for the intended purpose of throwing a last minute wrench it was _perfectly_ adequate.

 

If not for the named logistics problems, for the various player aircraft which did run directly over the cratered parts as they obviously werent aware of the runway damage.

 

So I am sorry, but I cant really follow your "wasn't good enough" assessment of the bombing.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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I am saying there was enough space to safely stop before the bombed area, which was close to the middle from the west side. Should bomb close to the ends, so planes break their "ankles" when they land :D.

 

And besides, on the south side of Kutaisi, there is perfectly straight taxiway with the exact same length as the runway.

 

Was cool, maybe a bit under thought in the execution phase, as you said it was a last minute job ? Defo, not good enough to stop rogue pilots landing and using precious fuel in the situation given. :) We executed and stole fighter jets, a bit of bombing and soil spread around won't stop us.

 

BTW, how big are those bombs you dropped ?

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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I am saying there was enough space to safely stop before the bombed area, which was close to the middle from the west side. Should bomb close to the ends, so planes break their "ankles" when they land :D.

 

And besides, on the south side of Kutaisi, there is perfectly straight taxiway with the exact same length as the runway.

 

Was cool, maybe a bit under thought in the execution phase, as you said it was a last minute job ? Defo, not good enough to stop rogue pilots landing and using precious fuel in the situation given. :) We executed and stole fighter jets, a bit of bombing and soil spread around won't stop us.

 

BTW, how big are those bombs you dropped ?

 

Your perception of what is safe for your aircraft seems unrealistic to me.

The MIG29 as a dedicated frontline aircraft does have closing intake doors for exactly previously named reasons.

 

For breaking ankles. There were multiple f15s driving over the craters.... nothing happend to them because they have that type of interaction not modelled.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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The 29 has closing doors to stop debris because Russian airfields have grass etc all over. They are not nearly as clean as NATO bases. Those doors are not made to stop bomb craters and prevent the aircraft from falling in. The point is that if the runway is bombed no plane would be taking off. Just because it's not modelled doesn't make it ok. All flaming cliffs aircraft will not fall into runway craters, but all full fidelity aircraft will.

 

Further more, just because you can does not mean you should. Bombing the airfield was meant in this event, if I understand it, to shut it down like it would in real life. If the runway is out of commission I. Real life that airfield is essentially useless until it is repaired. This is why in the Falklands War they bombed the Argentinian runway; to stop aircraft from being able to la d and take off. Again, just because the sim doesn't model it doesn't mean we should abuse it. I would really like more movement to real life behavior instead of just doing things because you can.


Edited by M0ltar
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don't know for other, I am talking for me and I am 100% my plane did feel the bumps, but they were not craters.

 

Bad positioning.

 

Taxiway was still safe and far enough

 

Aren't the bombs you dropped like just big amount of small pellets ? I am not familiar with the viggen.

 

I might just have the wrong perception

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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don't know for other, I am talking for me and I am 100% my plane did feel the bumps, but they were not craters.

 

Bad positioning.

 

Taxiway was still safe and far enough

 

Aren't the bombs you dropped like just big amount of small pellets ? I am not familiar with the viggen.

 

I might just have the wrong perception

image-55006-galleryV9-aeny-55006.jpg

 

blade-damage.jpg

 

This is what happens to planes thanks to small objects on the runway.

 

That is the last Thing I am going to contribute to this topic. :)


Edited by microvax

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

*unexpected flight behaviour* Oh shiii*** ! What ? Why ? What is happening ?

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This is what happens to planes thanks to small objects on the runway.

 

That is the last Thing I am going to contribute to this topic. :)

 

Yeah, small bombs, bad positioning. And even if you say there is a enormous amount of shrapnel from these "gigantic" pellets, which are berried in the dirt. THERE IS STILL THE TAXYWAY, which at most would have just a bit of dirt on it.

 

Pretty sure that concord accident was from big metal piece(control surface, from an another jet) being launched by the gear up into the weak fuel tanks of the plane.

 

Second picture, mate are you havin a giggle, did a backtrack on it and that is from an A300 from 2003 in Iraq which was hit by a SAM....... :D:D:D, yeah "small objects", a damn missile.

 

http://www.forospp.com/foros/content.php?412-MAY-DAY-DHL-attempted-shootdown-incident

 

If jets can take-off from these, they can handle a bit of dirt on the taxiway,which is probably around 100 meters from the runway(I can measure it if you want to):

 

2LblO.jpg

lP3qp.jpg

VvJVG.jpg

9uN92.jpg

 

Plus, that is at least 100 from the center of your drop, the taxi way has the same length as the runway, do I need to tell you what that means ?

 

I am not even going to comment about russian planes and their dirt protections.

 

Well, they are not F-15s, but neither are the taxiways looking like that.

 

I am not saying your point is not correct. You guys just didn't do a good job. A good enough job. And I can add that. yes DCS doesn't model these types of stuff in the best way, so it does make it a bit more difficult.


Edited by Shadow KT

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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Good enough job? How do you define a good enough job? FC3 planes, again, don't give a shit about craters or anything on the runway or taxi way. They float right over them. Further more, dirt and sand is very different then massive pieces of runway and airfield all over your taxiway and runway. What happens when your front landing gear hits a 1ft piece of runway that was blown off from the bombs? The front gear collapses and you crash. Engine intake shields are not going to do crap for your gear. Furthermore, even if the taxiway was not hit, there would be shit all of it. massive pieces of debris etc. Yes, you could use it eventually, but it is going to take the airfield personnel longer than 5 min to clear it and clean it. Again, dirt and sand is very different than massive rocks, pieces of concrete and tarmac.

 

I don't know where you're getting off with this. Our point is that when the airfield was bombed and the bombs hit the airfield the airfield should have closed for at least a period of time. I realize that this is not real life and that is, again, part of my point. We cant simulate real life conditions of what happens on airfield bomb strikes. So, we need to make do that if the runway was bombed it should close otherwise there is no point in even having these missions to bomb airfields to shut them down. Its not really fair to have these missions and then say well I can still take off in my fake plane because my fake plane doesn't even take into account the state of the runway being used. Hell, a lot of the time, if you crash on a runway other players can roll straight through your wreckage. By your accounts this is completely fair. My plane is not effected by phantom aircraft so I should be able to use it.

 

Lastly, everyone wants this mission to be supoer realistic and for us to be as true to life as possible. We want ATC to be as real as we can. We want people using correct comms. We want people in separate flights. We want all this stuff, but you say that, again, just because your plane isnt effected by modeling in DCS or you cant see debris on the runway and taxiway then its fair game and is realistic.

 

Come on. We all know that airfield should have been shut down. That was the whole point of the strike and Micro and Dackster hit the runway. In any real life situation that airfield would have ceased operation for a time that I guarantee would be longer than 5 minutes because what happens if you have to abort a take off? What happens if you have an emergency landing? Thats right, you're either hitting debris or your ass is in a crater and dead.

 

Your 'little pellets' were 120kg. Normal runway munitions are 25-30kg. Those 120kg bombs, and there were 16, would put sizable holes in your runway. Even if those holes were not huge, they would still kick up large pieces of debris and make your runway unusable. And yes, debris would have no problem flying 100ft or further to land on your precious taxi way...

 

Lastly, Shadow, your plane did not feel pumps because it is a FC3 aircraft. In that mission you were flying an F15 and those planes do not care about craters on the runway. They float right over them. You will not feel anything because the FC3 aircraft do not care about it. If you were in an M2000 or anything that was full fidelity or even a mig29, su25, or a10a and you hit a crater, even a very very small one, your gear would be ripped off and you would crash. Simple as that. You could drop a nuke on the runway and your F15 would take off like its just another day in paradise.


Edited by M0ltar
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I thought you were using a different munition. 120 is better, it is still HE tho, but I agree it could do damage. MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT YOU CANNOT HIT A SINGLE AREA OF THE RUNWAY AND CLOSE AN AIRFIELD, what if it was Sochi ? Even if it didn't have a second runway, the main one is so big, plus the taxiway. I am okey with a down time of 5 mins for cleaning small debris, after that attack(Don't know when the attack was done, but we were landing pretty much at the end of the game). Maybe a set rules of which spots you have to hit for maximum effect and how much downtime or complete closure of the runway, should be set.

 

1ft of conrete, yeaa...

 

3487c8a84921fbb6ab636a71c5460211.png

da9d43d0a77c6057c500f8d6e5b3b000.png

c880a7a6e6e8ad0b5519b24a441af84f.png

46d234dbab84bc8645b9ab09ea0dee8b.png

 

 

As we are not going to agree, I just think that for future events, there has to be set "rules" with different zones, how much does it cost to repair certain zone (in time) depending on what was dropped, or if either the whole airfield is marked as unusable. How about that ? You agree with me ?

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

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