DCS: F-14 Air to Air Refueling Tutorial

On 12/27/2021 at 10:29 PM, Callsign JoNay said:

I totally disagree with the no curves mafia. It's just simple logic. Adding curves dedicates a larger portion of the total resolution of each axis to near the center  where you need to make precise movements. You don't need the same precision on the extremes of the axes. If zero curves was beneficial to AAR or flying tight formation than negative curves would be even more so, which is obviously not true. 

 

Don't listen to others. Everyone's stick and body combination is different. You have to experiment and find your own curves that work best for you.

Bolded by me. 
I must disagree with this statement. While it is true that increased resolution around the center helps with precision flying, the statement that the extremes of the axis don't require such precision are true, ONLY if you fly the plane as a makeshift airliner or a carpet bomber. Try aerobatics or BFM or heavens forbid, SAM evasion jinks with such curves, and the steeper they are the most likely you are to rip you wings off (at worst) or depart the plane due to excessive pitch (at best)  
If you can find away to have two separate curve settings, one for AAR and one for regular use, then go for it. But even this will require you to rewire your brain for two distinct plane behaviors. IMO, it's much better to be patient and develop fine motor skill instead of take the easy route and develop bad muscle memory. 

But ultimately it's your choice. If you expect to never have to violently maneuver the plane, then curves will not hurt you. Just don't try pulling the stick even slightly at mach 1.4 or above. 

14 hours ago, Hector45 said:

I used to think this as well but it will only fill your fuselage tank. External tanks and internal wing tanks won't fill unless switch is all the way up 

Right, thx for the reminder.

4 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Bolded by me. 
I must disagree with this statement. While it is true that increased resolution around the center helps with precision flying, the statement that the extremes of the axis don't require such precision are true, ONLY if you fly the plane as a makeshift airliner or a carpet bomber. Try aerobatics or BFM or heavens forbid, SAM evasion jinks with such curves, and the steeper they are the most likely you are to rip you wings off (at worst) or depart the plane due to excessive pitch (at best)  
If you can find away to have two separate curve settings, one for AAR and one for regular use, then go for it. But even this will require you to rewire your brain for two distinct plane behaviors. IMO, it's much better to be patient and develop fine motor skill instead of take the easy route and develop bad muscle memory. 

But ultimately it's your choice. If you expect to never have to violently maneuver the plane, then curves will not hurt you. Just don't try pulling the stick even slightly at mach 1.4 or above. 

I was talking about in context to AAR which is what the topic is about. Some were saying curves won't help with AAR, or non FBW systems, and that's just wrong. You're correct there is a trade off by sacrificing resolution at the outer edges of the axes. I feel like I get the best overall performance across the spectrum with some curves, but that's just me. My advice to the one who asked for curves recommendations is to not listen to anyone's advice, including mine, and to do their own testing to find what works. Everyone's HOTAS+body combination is unique.

4 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

I was talking about in context to AAR which is what the topic is about. Some were saying curves won't help with AAR, or non FBW systems, and that's just wrong. You're correct there is a trade off by sacrificing resolution at the outer edges of the axes. I feel like I get the best overall performance across the spectrum with some curves, but that's just me. My advice to the one who asked for curves recommendations is to not listen to anyone's advice, including mine, and to do their own testing to find what works. Everyone's HOTAS+body combination is unique.

I agree, plus I would add HOTAS+body+module; a curve that works for one module will not automatically be the solution to any others. Each needs to be setup as an individual case.

The only universal statement I would say is to use the minimum curvature you feel comfortable with.

I'll just leave this here (boldened highlight by me):

Am 18.4.2019 um 00:53 schrieb Victory205:

No curves whatsoever, 2-3 DZ on all axis.

 

Best approach is to focus on your own skills and stop looking for magical solutions. Use your time to practice basic instrument flying using the VDI.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Callsign JoNay:

I was talking about in context to AAR 

Well, I wasn't...

...because the poster I was replying to was asking about our curve settings, and I told him mine were zero. He replied back that reducing his curves actually helped, and in the post I assume you are referring to I tried to encourage him to try with no curves. 

Be that as it may, artificially dampening stick response to make one single task ostensibly more easy (and is it, really?) while sacrificing performance at some other part of your spectrum is not a good approach IMO. It's like always putting training wheels on your bike for speeds under 5 km/h. Sure, you won't be tipping over that easily, but you'd run into significant problems at higher speeds.

BTW, I can confidently and consistently manage to do all "tomcatty" stuff without curves and a small DZ on a crappy, 12+ year old G940, a minimum spec GFX card and a Vive Pro. Not due to my natural good looks, superhuman abilities and minty fresh breath (that's a given  ), but due to putting in some effort to hone the appropriate motor skills and build the necessary muscle memory.

Yes, coming back from some time with the Viper or the Hornet will mess that up some, but that's the way it is. 

Edit:

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Callsign JoNay:

My advice to the one who asked for curves recommendations is to not listen to anyone's advice, including mine, and to do their own testing to find what works.

That's generally a good notion, but to be fair, without previous input by the "curves cosa nostra" (  ), the question about setting up custom curves would probably never even come up for the majority of new players. So at least give people all possible options to give him a chance to try out what will work for them.

With enough practice you will get good with anything. I got pretty good at tanking the F15 using my old Logitech 3D pro. That being said I used slight curves when I used the Logitech and when I had my TM T16000M because the center point took an annoying amount of effort to get past.

Since upgrading to VKB I've removed all curves and tanking/formation flight has never been easier or more precise for me.

But like others said, don't think axis curves or upgrading HOTAS will be a magic bullet. Practice, practice, practice! Good luck.

Look i understand that not all of us are created or trained equal and life has been harder to some of us then others. Just because i can do it without any stick extensions and 16000+ DPI on my old CH Fighterstick, doesn't mean, everyone can. But i would advise most to at least try. But not try for the sake of trying. Try until you palms sweat and fingers blister. And then, and only then, if after weeks or months of idle effort, you still can't do it......then try adding some curves. Just be aware of the pitfalls that go along with them, so when you hit those, they won't come out of nowhere and you don't feel cheated.... 

Is the Nevada Instant Action aerial refueling mission broken? I can't get the KC-130 to respond. Its radio option is darkish and say N/A

Sorry for digging up that post, but I tried to AAR with the cat, but it seems to be affected by wake turbulences but in my mission they are deactivated. Other modules works fine, but the Cat moves a lot even if I'm 0.5Nm away from the tanker .

1 hour ago, grim_reaper68 said:

Sorry for digging up that post, but I tried to AAR with the cat, but it seems to be affected by wake turbulences but in my mission they are deactivated. Other modules works fine, but the Cat moves a lot even if I'm 0.5Nm away from the tanker .

Form up on the tanker on its left side> probe out> get lower than the tanker and slide behind the basket> keep the basket level or slightly higher. If the tanker is slow> wings forward on a pre defined manual angle or auto.

If you come straight from its 6 o clock you'll be met with turbulence and unnecessary difficulties. <- I'm just guessing for the info that was presented and my own experience.

OK, I will try that. I was just wondering why the Cat is the only affected by wake turbulence even if  they are deactivated. The tanker speed is at 350kts 15000ft.

You might also want to try sweep your wings back to 50 degrees, it increases your AOA which will drop your vertical stabs down out of the disturbed air coming off the tanker wing. 
 

I’ve not tried it myself in sim but I’ve seen on Ward Carrol’s YouTube channel that they used to do that. 
 

On 1/14/2024 at 4:39 PM, grim_reaper68 said:

OK, I will try that. I was just wondering why the Cat is the only affected by wake turbulence even if  they are deactivated. The tanker speed is at 350kts 15000ft.

Tomcat module uses its own turbulence model. You can't turn it off.

350KIAS is crazy fast for Tomcat AAR. Try around 250.

OK. Thanks for your advices, I will try ASAP.

On 1/14/2024 at 4:39 PM, grim_reaper68 said:

OK, I will try that. I was just wondering why the Cat is the only affected by wake turbulence even if  they are deactivated. The tanker speed is at 350kts 15000ft.

 

Heatblur introduced wake turbulence and burble effect for the F-14 before ED made it generally available, that's why.
I find that tanker speeds in training missions are quite different from what RL crews say they normally refuel at. Proper speed is different for each module but as a general rule of thumb 300-310KIAS works best for most modules. If you want to keep it realistic though, keep speed under 270KIAS when you deploy/retract the refuelling probe since IRL it might get damaged if you deploy/retract it at higher speeds.

  

On 2/18/2022 at 8:11 PM, irfanahmed1979 said:

Is the Nevada Instant Action aerial refueling mission broken? I can't get the KC-130 to respond.

Sorry for the late reply. No it's not broken but the radio frequency is different, that's why the tanker doesn't respond. When you spawn into the mission, ask Jester to set the radio frequency for the tanker and after that it works just fine  

Another small "trick" I use , once trimmed out and instead of using bomb mode to keep the wings from moving (with the massive trim adjustments needed) I pop up the sweep handle into manual.  That keeps them from moving and altering your trim state  (and of course most importantly..it looks more pro!)