Cold War 1947 - 1991

Bud, tell you “Fan Club” I ran out of fuel and took out the wheels to land the plane on the road.

I thought my fan club were the blue players who ask GCI if every MiG they see in front of them is me, and obsess over me to the point they open the stream to see if I was the one they killed?

The wheels were out before you levelled off to land. It was clearly visible a circle or two before you made a landing attempt - as for being out of fuel, you had the speed to simply leave after striking the airfield. Instead you stuck around to try and strafe us as we took off, you nailed the second MiG as he got off the ground and then came for me. Naturally given the choice between staying on the ground and getting strafed and scrambling to make at least some attempt at surviving, I took the latter.

I wouldn't have actually brought that fight up, except for the hilarious assertion that it must only be "other players" doing it. The usual, just like asking for "more strikers", but making sure they're the premier blue MiG-killing platform rather than more A-10s or helicopters ;)

Your wheels down increased turn rate theory is actually funny, it makes no sense what so ever :megalol:

But is it, really?

I went to test this offline afterwards, because I wanted to see if lowering the gear did actually do anything. It turns out that it does, because I was able to reproduce this exact same situation several times.

The wider circle is pulling as much as I could and only backing off the stick slightly when compressor stalls happened, to avoid flameout. Combat/dogfight loadout. With or without the draggy AKAN pods, the result was the same: the tighter circle - much tighter - is with the wheels down. Suddenly the Viggen becomes a radius fighter. The turn rate only increases by about a degree or two per second, but at that speed and with the MiG on the edge of a stall and well below his own best rate, that is enough.

The Viggen has no ground safety, so having the gear down won't prevent firing weapons - either missiles or guns, though obviously even an RB 74 won't make a turn that tight so it'd need to be guns.

The classical counter to this would surely be for the MiG to unload, accelerate, and try to attain his best turn rate at a higher speed... and yet, extending is a great way to get hit by a missile and also very hard to do when you've found yourself immediately in tight circles before even having time to accelerate after takeoff.

Not to mention that most of the hardcore MiG guys are only carrying two missiles anyway. Weight/drag penalties for a second pair of fullsize R-3/R-13 aren't worth it for two extra missiles when most fights end up in gun range anyway - or if you do carry the extras, it's worth even jettisoning them. Even before the rear aspect change I switched to a loadout of two or four R-60M when expecting dogfights rather than straightforward intercepts.

MiGs carrying four missiles (six is only for APU-60-II launch rails, which as the name suggests only carry the R-60/R-60M...) are not what you need to worry about, MiGs carrying two or none are.

You might want to ask Nellus about that, unless some mysterious bug caused his wheels to be very visibly down at the moment he finally began out-rating me, while the fight was being watched by about 40 people :)

 

 

 

It's not advice, it's condescending. Nor was I complaining about the Viggen being better in turn rate (I only brought it up to point out the ridiculousness of the "advice", and the Viggen can't sustain such a turn for long, especially when it enters the fight willingly with no fuel). My own flying has been pretty sloppy for a few weeks now, but that's on me. When flown well the 21 can hold with or out-turn a Viggen... until it drops its canard flaps by lowering the gear. I know this from being both aircraft in this scenario, though I didn't lower my gear when I was in the Viggen, on the server. I noticed the effect it had by watching others do it, and tested it offline to confirm.

 

Dropping the gear is a clever ploy but it doesn't universally work (someone else tried it against me a few months ago but didn't really 'do anything' with it) and it takes a lot of precision to get the best possible performance without killing the Viggen's engine. Like I said, and without a shred of irony - it isn't easy to do, and that's why it's usually a desperation move.

 

I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to tell us that we need to learn to use our planes how they were meant to be used, while then responding to any criticism (or even simple acknowledgement of something being done, without direct criticism) with "it's only a game, don't play if you don't like it". The same attitude, time and time again. We ask for a change that helps blue, like our missiles being restricted? Nobody says a word. Blue asks for a change that helps them? Fine. Blue asks for a change and we take issue with it? We're whining. We ask for something that helps ourselves? We're whining. At this point even asking for the changes we requested in the first place to be reversed is somehow 'whining'.

 

This is supposed to be a server people come on to have fun, and yes, to try and win on - but not a PR stunt.

Since you want DCS to be flown close to reality, I claim you are talking bullshit about turn rates. When it comes to turn fights, you must fly with sustainable max turn rate if you want to catch bandit. Or pull on the stick and loose all energy just take a lead shoot and after that turn rate drops like shit and you becaome dead meat if you're unlucky.

See for yourself mig21 diagrams and viggens:

http://www.temporal.com.au/viggen_final.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/5Ai8PE7.jpg

If you turn better than viggen, only two options are: guy in a viggen is not in max sustainable rate or DCS does not simulate turn rates correctly. And as we all know, mig21 was for some period of time like a x-wing star fighter. But I don't care about that beacause I don't have influence on that and frankly, having knowledge of all that freaking jet fighter specs does not make my life more comfortable :) :pilotfly:

I have done plenty of things that are nowhere near reality. Probably half my time on the server has been spent either making another belly landing because I forgot to calculate my fuel, or landing on an enemy airfield for entertainment purposes. Again, the goalposts are moved - I pointed out that we are being told to 'fly more like reality' if we want to win, by people who then turn around and say 'it's just a game' any time the same standard is applied to them.

There's a difference between expecting people to fly like pilots who have been qualified through a fighter school, and noticing a distinct pattern of trying to gain any advantage possible through using DCS' at times poor or non-existent simulation of limitations, especially between different third party modules. The MiG-21 basically can't be structurally damaged by abusive flying, but it can lose its engine or stall abruptly. The MiG-19 will tear itself apart if you try and make a high-speed roll, or abuse the ARU system. The Viggen will rip its wings in an abrupt high-G turn, and compressor stalls at high AoA, but is capable of passing its VNE easily with no consequences amongst other things. I don't think anyone expects DCS to be fully realistic, but some of us expect not to have to deal with bad faith arguments and double standards.

----

EDIT - I'd like to just reiterate again, by the way, that several of the problems with things not being simulated/being bugged/etc. on red aircraft were brought up by red players, and fixed because red players asked for them to be :)

I thought my fan club were the blue players who ask GCI if every MiG they see in front of them is me, and obsess over me to the point they open the stream to see if I was the one they killed?

 

The wheels were out before you levelled off to land. It was clearly visible a circle or two before you made a landing attempt - as for being out of fuel, you had the speed to simply leave after striking the airfield. Instead you stuck around to try and strafe us as we took off, you nailed the second MiG as he got off the ground and then came for me. Naturally given the choice between staying on the ground and getting strafed and scrambling to make at least some attempt at surviving, I took the latter.

 

I wouldn't have actually brought that fight up, except for the hilarious assertion that it must only be "other players" doing it. The usual, just like asking for "more strikers", but making sure they're the premier blue MiG-killing platform rather than more A-10s or helicopters ;)

 

 

 

But is it, really?

 

 

I went to test this offline afterwards, because I wanted to see if lowering the gear did actually do anything. It turns out that it does, because I was able to reproduce this exact same situation several times.

 

The wider circle is pulling as much as I could and only backing off the stick slightly when compressor stalls happened, to avoid flameout. Combat/dogfight loadout. With or without the draggy AKAN pods, the result was the same: the tighter circle - much tighter - is with the wheels down. Suddenly the Viggen becomes a radius fighter. The turn rate only increases by about a degree or two per second, but at that speed and with the MiG on the edge of a stall and well below his own best rate, that is enough.

 

The Viggen has no ground safety, so having the gear down won't prevent firing weapons - either missiles or guns, though obviously even an RB 74 won't make a turn that tight so it'd need to be guns.

 

The classical counter to this would surely be for the MiG to unload, accelerate, and try to attain his best turn rate at a higher speed... and yet, extending is a great way to get hit by a missile and also very hard to do when you've found yourself immediately in tight circles before even having time to accelerate after takeoff.

Are you for real?! :l

The Red’s just don’t stop, take that gear down theory and sell it to who ever has the time to watch your wanna be pilot channel. Come back to me when you have a Com license, or better. Then we can talk about your theories.

Thanks for being a role model of maturity :)

Since you want DCS to be flown close to reality, I claim you are talking bullshit about turn rates. When it comes to turn fights, you must fly with sustainable max turn rate if you want to catch bandit. Or pull on the stick and loose all energy just take a lead shoot and after that turn rate drops like shit and you becaome dead meat if you're unlucky.

 

See for yourself mig21 diagrams and viggens:

 

http://www.temporal.com.au/viggen_final.pdf

 

 

https://i.imgur.com/5Ai8PE7.jpg

 

If you turn better than viggen, only two options are: guy in a viggen is not in max sustainable rate or DCS does not simulate turn rates correctly. And as we all know, mig21 was for some period of time like a x-wing star fighter. But I don't care about that beacause I don't have influence on that and frankly, having knowledge of all that freaking jet fighter specs does not make my life more comfortable :) :pilotfly:

The parts I bolded are incorrect. While obsessing about charts and figures of plane performances are a fun academic exercise, this is not how dogfights play out. Planes do not fly on 2D co-centric circles. They rarely fly at the same speed or even hold it constant unless they get stuck near the ground at their stall speed - which means that the pilot flew the fight very badly. This is why the pilot is a huge factor in a dogfight, much more significant than performance figures unless the differences are very large.

I have no info regarding how the Viggen flies with gears out. However, if it is modeled correctly it is a legit move, even if it was not used by real pilots. The “sim” refers to the equipment, not the habits of the pilot.

I will be honest, recently got the Viggen and really enjoying it. Slow speed scissors and initial turn is great (didn't even think of the landing gear trick, but I don't like cheese like this, F18 pull breaker, F14 flaps >225knots and 2G etc).

Lots of MiGs seems to be forgetting that they have access to the R3-R (shooting a Viggen in the face is a good tactic, especially as many don't carry chaff) and are fighting the merge on the Viggen's terms (trying to go slow). The Rb24j is arguably the best IR available generally speaking over most parameters, but there are still tactics that work for the MiG21 that red are ignoring (learn to R3-R!). The Rb24j is not practically a frontal aspect IR missile. Fight the fight on your terms, not the enemies!

Also, you really should be keeping an eye for low Viggens. About 3/4 of my merges the MiG doesn't appear to be aware of the merge making it an easy chase down after the merge and slice.

Hopefully helpful, albeit blunt, guidance for red.

R-3R is a heavily underappreciated missile, but we need to see them on radar for it to work. Very few people will venture up high enough, more typically they either stay on the deck where the missile can't touch them (because the radar can't see them), or they'll approach high and dive at the last moment.

It is occasionally possible (well, fairly regularly over flat terrain) to use fixed beam to boresight lock the target in a dogfight and then R-3R it, but to be quite honest it's not entirely reliable and I'm also reasonably sure it shouldn't be a thing. Fixed beam mode is only ever mentioned in the context of slant ranging for A/G (on the RP-22; on the RP-21 it's used for the Grom too, which of course the RP-22 can't guide in real life) and being able to switch from the fixed beam to locked mode seems sketchy, either against a fixed point on the ground or an aerial target.

The MiG is surprisingly good at low speed as well but takes some finesse. The Viggen's main enemy there is the risk of compressor stalling and sinking, or even flaming the engine out totally. Going vertical once the Viggen's burnt its energy helps but isn't always an option if it catches you low and slow.

R-3R is a heavily underappreciated missile, but we need to see them on radar for it to work. Very few people will venture up high enough, more typically they either stay on the deck where the missile can't touch them (because the radar can't see them), or they'll approach high and dive at the last moment.

 

It is occasionally possible (well, fairly regularly over flat terrain) to use fixed beam to boresight lock the target in a dogfight and then R-3R it, but to be quite honest it's not entirely reliable and I'm also reasonably sure it shouldn't be a thing. Fixed beam mode is only ever mentioned in the context of slant ranging for A/G (on the RP-22; on the RP-21 it's used for the Grom too, which of course the RP-22 can't guide in real life) and being able to switch from the fixed beam to locked mode seems sketchy, either against a fixed point on the ground or an aerial target.

 

The MiG is surprisingly good at low speed as well but takes some finesse. The Viggen's main enemy there is the risk of compressor stalling and sinking, or even flaming the engine out totally. Going vertical once the Viggen's burnt its energy helps but isn't always an option if it catches you low and slow.

The RB24j is also fairly susceptible to flares and I've seen some really good low level, high speed plays that make it difficult to get an acquisition and tracking by the missile. As you say the Viggen at high AOA has those compressor stalls... abrupt manoeuvres by a MiG should help create such compressors stalls.

The parts I bolded are incorrect. While obsessing about charts and figures of plane performances are a fun academic exercise, this is not how dogfights play out. Planes do not fly on 2D co-centric circles. They rarely fly at the same speed or even hold it constant unless they get stuck near the ground at their stall speed - which means that the pilot flew the fight very badly. This is why the pilot is a huge factor in a dogfight, much more significant than performance figures unless the differences are very large.

 

I have no info regarding how the Viggen flies with gears out. However, if it is modeled correctly it is a legit move, even if it was not used by real pilots. The “sim” refers to the equipment, not the habits of the pilot.

I guess you never tried f86 vs mig 15 pvp. And yes, if pilotis not able to maintain best croner speed,, than it is a very bad pilot. And yes, I know DF is not all about 2D circles and yes, I have real pilot licence and yes, I'm in simulators since 1984. So, I know how to fly damn plane.

I will be honest, recently got the Viggen and really enjoying it. Slow speed scissors and initial turn is great (didn't even think of the landing gear trick, but I don't like cheese like this, F18 pull breaker, F14 flaps >225knots and 2G etc).

 

Lots of MiGs seems to be forgetting that they have access to the R3-R (shooting a Viggen in the face is a good tactic, especially as many don't carry chaff) and are fighting the merge on the Viggen's terms (trying to go slow). The Rb24j is arguably the best IR available generally speaking over most parameters, but there are still tactics that work for the MiG21 that red are ignoring (learn to R3-R!). The Rb24j is not practically a frontal aspect IR missile. Fight the fight on your terms, not the enemies!

 

Also, you really should be keeping an eye for low Viggens. About 3/4 of my merges the MiG doesn't appear to be aware of the merge making it an easy chase down after the merge and slice.

 

Hopefully helpful, albeit blunt, guidance for red.

Well said :thumbup:

The Red Mig21 flyer SAS6007 was able to shoot me down twice in a row on the Sail Ahoj mission using his R3-R missiles. Some Red aviators out there are under the impression that you have to fly high for such a lock and radar ident, but that’s wrong.

I was occluded in clouds at both instances and he could easily lock onto me (ones from the same altitude frontal heading, and the second was a lock from a sea level elevation).

I guess you never tried f86 vs mig 15 pvp. And yes, if pilotis not able to maintain best croner speed,, than it is a very bad pilot. And yes, I know DF is not all about 2D circles and yes, I have real pilot licence and yes, I'm in simulators since 1984. So, I know how to fly damn plane.

Touché Tolovay :thumbup:

High in reference to R-3R means "above ground clutter", which isn't that high in the grand scheme of things, about 3,000ft over flat land or 10,000 over mountains. Like I said you can cheese the radar modes if you really want in order to boresight someone (as long as there isn't terrain behind them). I'm about 90% sure the RP-22 shouldn't be able to do that, though. I'd like to get my hands on a copy of the manual some day.

When you do get a firm lock on somebody, the R-3R is a boatload of fun because most people make little to no effort to evade it, thinking every missile is a heater.

A NEW MISSION HAS ARRIVED!!!

Operation: Hold The Line

* The mission will go online tomorrow around 1930 zulu time.

* The mission lasts for 10 hours.

* AWACS is not available! Only EWR's. You can deploy more for a clearer picture.

* The mission focuses mainly on the Combined Arms module.

Situation:

RED: Jiroft Airport, Red FARP West, Red FARP Middle and Red FARP East.

BLUE: Bandar Abbas Intl, Blue FARP West, Blue FARP Middle and Blue FARP East.

Each coalition has 1 airbase and 3 FARP's at mission's start. The main airbase cannot be captured. The FARP's however, can and must be captured. The coalition holding all 6 airbases wins the day. Each FARP has it's own Garrison that needs to be destroyed first before you can deploy units to capture it.

It is vital for both coalitions to hold the line at the FARP's area to cut the enemy's advance.

Red Objective:

MiG's and L-39's:

Each FARP has it's own ARC frequency that you can dial to. Check out the F-10 map, click on the marker and the frequency is displayed.

- Provide CAP around bullseye.

- Provide escort for friendly strikers.

MiG-29A's:

8 x Fulcrums are available at Kerman Airport. Once they land at our main airbase of Jiroft they will be kept there should the pilot step down from the airplane. However, R-60M's are only available at Kerman Airport.

The airplanes will be available 1 hour after mission's start.

Waypoint-1 - Our main airbase, Jiroft Airport.

Waypoint-2- Bullseye.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Su-25's and Ka-50's:

Provide CAS wherever is needed. Get on SRS, freq. 124 MHz, and organise your attacks with other pilots.

Su-25's Waypoints:

WP-1 - Red FARP West

WP-2 - Red FARP Middle

WP-3 - Red FARP East

WP-4 - Blue FARP East

WP-5 - Blue FARP Middle

WP-6 - Blue FARP West

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mi-8's:

* The heroes of every skirmish! *

Deploy ground units at enemy FARP's after we've destroyed all possible threats at that FARP to capture it.

You can also deploy EWR's to provide for a better picture.

We have 2 x Mi-8's at Jiroft Airport as backup should we lose all FARP's to the enemy. The two Hips are operational all the time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frequencies:

EWR-1: 124 MHz, channel 0 for MiG-21 and L-39, channel 2 for MiG-19.

EWR-2: MiG-15 -> 4.95 MHz (tuned by default).

Mi-8's Jadro 1A for intercomms with other Mi-8's only: 035500 KHz

R-828: Channel 9 for Mi-8's and Ka-50's (helicopters co-operations)

ARC frequencies:

Jiroft Airport: 276 kHz

Red FARP West: 772 kHz

Red FARP Middle: 745 kHz

Red FARP East: 711 kHz

Blue FARP West: 494 kHz

Blue FARP Middle: 422 kHz

Blue FARP East: 455 kHz

************************************************************************************

Blue Objective:

F-5's, F-86's and M-2000C's:

- Provide CAP around bullseye.

- Provide escort for friendly strikers.

M-2000C's:

8 x Mirages are available at Bandar-e-Jask airfield. Once they land at our main airbase of Bandar Abbas Intl they will be kept there should the pilot step down from the airplane. However, IR missiles are only available at Bandar-e-Jask airfield.

The airplanes will be available 1 hour after mission's start.

Waypoint-1 - Our main airbase, Bandar Abbas Intl.

Waypoint-2- Bullseye.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A-10's, AJS37's and SA342M's:

Provide CAS wherever is needed. Get on SRS, freq. 251 MHz, and organise your attacks with other pilots.

A-10's Waypoints:

WP-1 - Blue FARP West

WP-2 - Blue FARP Middle

WP-3 - Blue FARP East

WP-4 - Red FARP East

WP-5 - Red FARP Middle

WP-6 - Red FARP West

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UH-1's:

* The heroes of every skirmish! *

Deploy ground units at enemy FARP's after we've destroyed all possible threats at that FARP to capture it.

You can also deploy EWR's to provide for a better picture.

We have 2 x UH-1's at Bandar Abbas Intl as backup should we lose all FARP's to the enemy. The two Hueys are operational all the time.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frequencies:

EWR: 251 MHz

UHF AN/ARC-51 frequencies:

Blue FARP West: Channel 8 (257 MHz)

Blue FARP Middle: Channel 4 (256 MHz)

Blue FARP East: Channel 2 (264 MHz)

Red FARP West: Channel 17 (267 MHz)

Red FARP Middle: Channel 13 (269 MHz)

Red FARP East: Channel 11 (259 MHz)

Server News:

- The new mission Hold The Line replaces the mission Sail Ahoy! on the currently available server's missions.

Server News:

Operation Open Range:

- Ka-50's were moved from Vody airbase to a small FARP dedicated to the Ka-50's further west, south of the water station at the lake.

- The script for sling loading crates (CTLD) has been optimised.

Operation Search & Destroy:

- The Red FARP has been moved 35 km due east.

- The Blue FARP has been moved 35 km due northwest.

- This should help helicopters save time and distances to cover.

Hold The Line... Best mission!! 10/10

Hold The Line... Best mission!! 10/10

+1

Server News:

The server's running on today's released latest DCS Open Beta update.

Current mission is the new one; Hold The Line. Ran additional tests today and some fixes were added.

There seems to be a persistent problem in the new mission Hold The Line. We just had an intense and great battle and unfortunately the bug ruined it. Can't find the problem yet and it appears to be something in the mission editor itself which would be very frustrating.

Sorry, folks. Just bear with me.

There seems to be a persistent problem in the new mission Hold The Line. We just had an intense and great battle and unfortunately the bug ruined it. Can't find the problem yet and it appears to be something in the mission editor itself which would be very frustrating.

Sorry, folks. Just bear with me.

Maybe don’t make units spawn when we cap a FARP, that would bring more challenge, deploying defenses for the captured farp and it would avoid the respawn and recapture problem on them, the mission last 10h, 15min to deploy farp units to protect them is totally worth it :smilewink: