Landing P-51

Hi guys,

Learning to fly Mustang and most critical phases for me are take off and landing. Very hard to keep it steady. I can take off( bit wobly, tho) but when it comes to landing Im struggling to keep it steady on approach and to also im too high or low,most of the time. Do you trim for landing, or reset trimmers? Any advice on visual approach also will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

This video helped me a lot with the landings:

9X6j-6WyUvo

Most do a turning final, because it keeps constant visual of the runway. I myself don't, and just come straight in, which is a habit I have to break. Because of the nature of my landing (I wheel land the Mustang) I can still keep a constant full view of the runway, but I don't pass over the runway to make sure it's clear.

For a beginner, you want to perform three-point landings (although I've seen some real life pilots go straight to two off the bat).

I don't trim. I actually rely on the constant pitching down when the flaps are dropped. Once over the runway, I just ease the stick centered and it sets down, no bounce. I think most trim. You can if it makes things easier for you. For me, not trimming the pitch is easier.

You should be at an appropriate height into the circuit, say 1200ft, or 1500ft and trim, preferably entering it before downwind, conduct your landing checks on downwind, this includes drop flaps and U/C, be at say around 150mph for that, retrim, turn onto base when the threshold is around 45 degrees behind your wingtip, then on base start your descent, trim the aircraft once established in the desired descent, always trim the aircraft, whether you're in a steady climb, steady descent, or straight and level, it'll reduce your workload and prevent hunting, or PIOs, turn finals, adjust your approach speed for say around 110-120mph, and trim, as you lose sight of the numbers begin to bring the throttle back to idle and and gently ease the stick back a little to hold-off from landing, let the aircraft settle on its own, once on the ground stick eased full-back and let the aircraft slow on its own, only used the brakes once you can look out the side and envisage say a run/sprinting speed.

You'll get used to the sight-picture of the airfield when it's right, too low? Throttle up a little and adjust the pitch to maintain the desired approach speed, too high? Throttle back and let the nose come down a bit to maintain the desired approach speed, do not nose down to make the runway, you'll speed up and use up the runway.

When performing three-point landings, it can make it easier to trim. I've never had a problem. Sometimes I trim up some though.

I haven't done 3s in a while though, mostly doing wheel landings. For those, I don't trim. I rely on that constant nose down pressure, actually.

Not trimming is negative training for me, flying actual aircraft; always trim, especially in the circuit. It is especially important during the descent/landing phase, the turn onto finals for example; you're maintaining lookout for other aircraft that may be on long finals and not on comm's, it only takes a second looking out to your left/right for the nose to drop a little if you're not trim.

Trimming helps control the approach speed and rate of decent. I use 150 mph and 1000 fpm decent rate. Get them both nailed, and adjust power to make changes to being high or low in the pattern. Don’t try to drag the plane in at too low an altitude. Come in high enough to always see the runway and the spot you are aiming for. Fly about a 20 degree final, cut the power, and flair to land.

I take off with about 3 degrees right rudder and pitch trim nose down 3 and a half white marks from neutral. I want to be the one that decides when the plane should lift off. No sudden ballooning., that way. Also, some right stick and all the way back until the rudder takes affect.

There are several good utube tutorials.

I'm hesitant to give any advice because I stink at landing those. However, once upon a time I had pretty good practice and it seemed the key for me was to take it easy and not let it bounce. It just gets worse if it bounces so I had to bring it in easy and flare gently but authoritatively. That's all I could concentrate on really. I can't remember all the numbers and what not. But now I can't do that even because I never fly the bird.

Thanks for all the input guys, appreciate it.

The P-51 training missions has a pretty good landing mission. It will start you at altitude and lead you through a series of gates, with verbal instructions, right down to the threshold. After landing, it has you exit the runway, park, and shut down the engine. I follow the training mission with the Instant Action landing mission. It takes a lot of practice, but it's doable.

I used to dial in six degrees of right rudder trim when I was learning to take off. I never use any now, just pull the stick back and dance on the rudder pedals. One thing I do when taking off is to raise the tail (push the stick forward of neutral) at about 80-90 MPH. This reduces the angle of attack (AOA) to prevent lifting too soon and stalling. I do it on all of my taildraggers. Makes take offs much more controllable.

Bottom line; keep doing the landing training mission until you develop the muscle memory and you feel comfortable. Then keep doing the Instant Action Landing mission until you are comfortable. HINT: the airfield elevation in the Instant Action landing mission is about 1,500 feet above mean sea level.

Cheers guys. Maybe you can suggest also axis settings ? I have a logitech 3d pro joystick.

This video helped me a lot with the landings:

 

9X6j-6WyUvo

He doesn't really know what he's talking about, you never fly directly over and parallel with the runway, he bounced pretty bad (however i have bounced much worse many times), his pattern was sloppy ect.

You should be at an appropriate height into the circuit, say 1200ft, or 1500ft and trim, preferably entering it before downwind, conduct your landing checks on downwind, this includes drop flaps and U/C, be at say around 150mph for that, retrim, turn onto base when the threshold is around 45 degrees behind your wingtip, then on base start your descent, trim the aircraft once established in the desired descent, always trim the aircraft, whether you're in a steady climb, steady descent, or straight and level, it'll reduce your workload and prevent hunting, or PIOs, turn finals, adjust your approach speed for say around 110-120mph, and trim, as you lose sight of the numbers begin to bring the throttle back to idle and and gently ease the stick back a little to hold-off from landing, let the aircraft settle on its own, once on the ground stick eased full-back and let the aircraft slow on its own, only used the brakes once you can look out the side and envisage say a run/sprinting speed.

 

You'll get used to the sight-picture of the airfield when it's right, too low? Throttle up a little and adjust the pitch to maintain the desired approach speed, too high? Throttle back and let the nose come down a bit to maintain the desired approach speed, do not nose down to make the runway, you'll speed up and use up the runway.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Cheers guys. Maybe you can suggest also axis settings ? I have a logitech 3d pro joystick.

I wouldn't mess with the axis settings for the stick too much (if at all), i personally use a little curve on the rudder, but not on the stick. Do you have pedals?

I don't know if this helps, but i made a quick track of 3 landings (a 3 point, a very bat wheel landing (i wasn't paying attention), and a decent wheel landing). This is just the way i do it, so it is far from perfect, but i almost never crash on landing so it seems to work pretty good.

51 Landings.trk

Hey kolga, thanks for the input. Ill take a look at the tracks. So you saying I should leave axis as default? I do like to have some deadzone, otherwise the stick is too sensitive..

My advices to learn landings:

- start out in calm weather without crosswinds

- do a proper approach (up wind leg, base leg and final approach)

- watch your height and your speed (use always the same altitude, e.g. 1000ft AGL and start to decent at the final approach)

- watch for one thing at a time: first align to the runway, then watch your speed, short before the runway thrust idle and just concentrate on a nice landing, dont put the plane down keep it short above the runway and let the plane land itself.

at the end it all comes down to practice, since you dont have an instructor in your backseat as it would be when you learn to land a real plane, just dont mind about crashed planes.

Theres always a next try in a virtual world ;)

 

at the end it all comes down to practice, since you dont have an instructor in your backseat as it would be when you learn to land a real plane, just dont mind about crashed planes.

Theres always a next try in a virtual world ;)

I posted these in another tread and will post them here to, it's as close as we get to having "instructor in your backseat" for taildraggers anyway.

Less powerful than what we are flying in sim, still same concepts to learn.

[...] let the aircraft settle on its own, [...]

[...] dont put the plane down keep it short above the runway and let the plane land itself. [...]

Indeed, this is known as the hold-off for the curious, this is what will aid you in preventing a bounce, with the throttle pulled to idle keep trying to fly the aircraft a little above the airfield, keep it held-off as long as you can, you'll notice that you'll need subtly more and more back-stick and then she'll settle when she's ready.

Always trim the aircraft

Wheel landings are easier than three point

Anticipation is key in a tail dragger.

Make all your control inputs smooth and slow.

Fly the same pattern every time. A proper overhead pattern will make learning to land easier. It will make achieving your numbers easier and a continuously curved path to touchdown will make visibility much better.

Hey kolga, thanks for the input. Ill take a look at the tracks. So you saying I should leave axis as default? I do like to have some deadzone, otherwise the stick is too sensitive..

No problem, hope it helps. I personally have no curve on the joystick and that works really well for me, but i have i different stick so you may have to experiment. What i would do is try flying only in the pattern doing takeoffs and landings (while taking some of the excellent advise by our fellow forum users) for a while (maybe an hour or two or so (doesn't have to be in a row either), whatever fits your schedule) and if you don't see much improvement try a little curve and then do some more.

My advices to learn landings:

 

- start out in calm weather without crosswinds

- do a proper approach (up wind leg, base leg and final approach)

- watch your height and your speed (use always the same altitude, e.g. 1000ft AGL and start to decent at the final approach)

- watch for one thing at a time: first align to the runway, then watch your speed, short before the runway thrust idle and just concentrate on a nice landing, dont put the plane down keep it short above the runway and let the plane land itself.

 

at the end it all comes down to practice, since you dont have an instructor in your backseat as it would be when you learn to land a real plane, just dont mind about crashed planes.

Theres always a next try in a virtual world ;)

+1!!!

I think I really need to work out my routines to how to approch landing in general, and get some theory reads also. Right now all my landings are 50/50 chance of success )) Maybe even join some squad in the future, for more fun and productive flying. I suppose general rules of flight remain the same for most aircraft, just number and some procedures vary from one to another?

I suppose general rules of flight remain the same for most aircraft, just number and some procedures vary from one to another?

Pretty much yes.

Old vid but a good one:

You can basically follow that with most jets (Mig-21, not so much) and just go a little bit quicker, and pretty much follow it exactly for any of the WWII birds.

The first couple of times I landed the BF109, FW190 and Spit was using that method without even looking at the manual for the proper figures.

Edit: No-one has said it, but it's really useful to spend a bit of time practicing flying a couple of feet off the runway under low power. Stopping bouncing becomes really easy if you cut the throttle in that position.

Just to clear up a little hiccup here, coming in on a straight approach isn't going to spell out bouncing, wingscrapes and death. The only thing you don't get out of that kind of approach versus the turning approach, is that you don't get as good a view of the runway to ensure it's clear. While your approach style doesn't hinder the smoothness of your landing, it is important to ensure the runway is clear before landing.