I pulled the trigger and ordered the $950 option

I finally altered my seating arrangement to permit installing the Super Libra stick with the desk clamp.

I already loved the TM Hornet grip, so having almost the same exact shape is a good thing. But the feel and functionality of this grip is better in many ways. The 4-way hat functionality on the little button between the trim and castle switch vice the TM idea of adding an extra control to the left of it is great. The center depress on the trim hat is beneficial, too. The thumb switch on the middle of the stick is the biggest improvement since I can easily move the Winwing version in every direction, whereas the TM Hornet grip's version of this switch is too stiff to easily move to the left.

The stick desk clamp works as well as the throttle desk clamp. The variation in height adjustment gives you the option to use the stick with or without the extension. I like having an extension to better match geometry and motion of real-world aircraft sticks, so I had to lower the mount all the way down and use the minimum size of the extension. With this setup, I pretty much get the geometry I wanted in terms of the height of the stick above the throttle panel as well as the desired range of motion in the pitch axis.

I have only one complaint about this setup compared to my preferred VKB Gunfighter base: when you transition across the center in either pitch or roll, you can feel it, similar to the Warthog stick, but a lot less severe. If you start from the center and move away, there is no bump nor is there any "stiction", so you can smoothly make very small adjustments that are simply impossible with a stock out-of-the-box Warthog stick base. But if you very much know when you are crossing the center, which is not the case with the VKB base.

If I had this stick before I got the VKB, I probably would not have bought the VKB. But since I have both, the VKB is still the better option for me.

One further comment: One thing I like to see is precision in the digital output of the analog axes: no noise, but sensitive to even the slightest movement of the stick. The Winwing appears to be as good as anyone in this regard. The Warthog was always good about this. VKB gives you the tools to tune the behavior to your preference, but is at least as good as the Warthog out of the box. The Winwing is smooth. VKB has one more little edge, though. After calibration, if you bump the VKB and let it return to center, it almost always returns exactly to center. The Winwing calibration procedure seems focused on the endpoints, as I don't see it exactly at the center after calibration. This doesn't really cause a problem, because when my hand is on the stick, it will always report the position I move it to, as a real stick would and as the VKB does as well. So the natural center has little value for me other than knowing the precision of the centering mechanism, axis position sensing, and calibration system.

While some say you can't use that level of precision, I can say that with the Winwing, I can pick a reference anywhere over the 0-65535 digital axes range and move the value by 1 bit, i.e. from 32767 (center) to 32768. While it is easier to do near the center where the spring forces are lower, I can move exactly one bit even at the extremes, i.e. from 89 to 88 which is right at the end of the pitch full forward limit of 0. This makes the Winwing a top notch stick for me. The Warthog has only 14 bit resolution despite advertisements to the contrary and the stiction makes it very difficult to make such small precise adjustments. VKB is capable of higher resolution, but out of the box they have it programmed for 14, probably for stability and helping get that near perfect centering effect.

I will probably fly with this stick for a week or two to see how it holds up after hours of heavy dog fighting and to see if I get to a point where the center point doesn't bother me.

@streakeagle. I'd be interested to hear more about the Winwing base since the base/grip combo right now is 50% off which is kind of tempting. Have you tried the extension tube with it? My WarBRD is ok but with an extension tube on I find it difficult to do AAR (too wobbly) so now I have removed it.

Interestingly the base that gives me the best AAR results so far is the FSSB R3L with 1:2 sensitivity mode--it just blunts out most of my errors in overcorrection. Or maybe I'm just used to it more than other bases.

I am using the extension tube at its minimum extension setting, which puts the top of the stick at almost exactly the correct height relative to the throttle panel when the desktop clamp is at the full down extension limit. If I didn't want the extra range of motion provided by the extension, I could remove it and raise the desktop clamp up to keep the top of the stick at the same height. This is a very flexible arrangement which should be able to satisfy just about anyone's preferences for stick length, range of travel, and elevation level.

I would never use a wobbly extension tube. Precision is my thing :) The Winwing tube does have screws for adjusting its height. The threaded connectors between the stick and the tube and the tube and the base allow a lot of flexibility on the twist angle of the stick. But all of those connections could pose issues with being loose/wobbly if the threads got messed up especially if you were repeatedly disassembling/reassembling. As it is, you have to be careful to get everything tight to keep the stick from twisting, but lock screws are provided to make sure everything stays tight once you are happy with your setup.

As I have said more than once in this thread and others, I have only one complaint relative to the VKB: the transition at the center. Otherwise, I would say this stick is mechanically and electrically equal or better than the VKB. I have not messed with the software other than to use it for calibration, flashing firmware, etc. So, I can't say how the software compares with VKB's package. But the VKB software is extremely powerful. The only things SimAppPro could try to do to surpass VKB's power and flexibility is the make the user interface friendlier for the average simmer instead of being packed with features that only make sense if you are a controls engineer and/or have time to read the detailed documentation.

With the Warthog adapter to permit using the Warthog A-10C/F-16C grip and possibly many Virpil grips, this stick is a very strong rival to the VKB and Virpil sticks and the TM Warthog stick is far inferior not only because of its gimbal design and feel, but the difficulty in disassembling it to clean, lubricate, and/or make modifications is much inferior to these later designs. I love the TM Warthog throttle, but the stick is only an emergency backup for me. I will probably give away one of them to my brother-in-law when I build a new computer and give him this one so he can fly, too :)

My main grip will likely be the F-18 from Realsimulator, and I do like using an extension tube since it makes flying more comfortable especially with the Harrier or Helos. So, my ideal base would either be Winwing or Virpil T50CM2 for compatibility‘s sake. Winwing seems a better deal right now, you get both grip and base at a cheaper price and the extension length is also adjustable.

I’m still ok with the WarBRD though as it allows me to perform whatever task I need (just not ideal with a 15 cm extension tube). Maybe I’ll just wait for some nice force feedback base for the next upgrade cycle.

My main grip will likely be the F-18 from Realsimulator, and I do like using an extension tube since it makes flying more comfortable especially with the Harrier or Helos. So, my ideal base would either be Winwing or Virpil T50CM2 for compatibility‘s sake. Winwing seems a better deal right now, you get both grip and base at a cheaper price and the extension length is also adjustable.

 

I’m still ok with the WarBRD though as it allows me to perform whatever task I need (just not ideal with a 15 cm extension tube). Maybe I’ll just wait for some nice force feedback base for the next upgrade cycle.

The WarBRD should be more than adequate... fix the wobbly extension! Winwing might be a step down due to the feel at the center, though I don't know what a WarBRD feels like.

VKB doesn't have exactly the extension I want: just the straight 10 cm and the curved 20 cm. So I bought some aluminum pipe that is almost identical to their extension and I will cut it to several lengths then use the cable and connectors from the 20 cm curved extension to make the desired size work. I need about a 12, 15, or 17 cm extension depending on which grip I am using at the time. So I will make all three.

The Realsimulator grips are very nice. But I already have two Hornet grips and both were good enough to be my primary grip for modern US jets. I also like having the paddle switch as it saves the trouble of have to build one and then integrate it to some type of USB interface. If you get the Winwing stick, hold off on getting the Realsimulator grip until you try the Winwing grip. You may find it more than adequate.

My current installation:

Very nice setup. I didn't realize how thick the Jetseat is. It has been on my wishlist for a while now.

I sometimes get to beta test stuff from Realsim, so using their products is my norm.

I have some extra padding in my jetseat. Without the extra padding, it feels like sitting on rocks where the motors are. My wife used to order those "simple meals" in a box and they used plastic bags filled with recycled cotton for insulation. I have recycled the recycled cotton :) This is my 2nd jetseat and I just got around to adding the padding today, so it hasn't gotten compressed yet. I need to check one of the motors on my first jetseat. But when Gametrix shutdown, I wanted to be sure I had spares, so I ordered a 2nd one and will use the first one for spare parts and/or a 2nd seat.

I just finished programming a few stick profiles and trying out the Winwing stick in combat. It feels great. I don't push over into negative g very often, so the only time I am crossing center in a dogfight is when I am rolling from side to side, so I rarely feel the transition bump. The feedback from the springs is great. Not as good as force feedback, but it still feels nice. I wish someone would make a decent force feedback stick for a reasonable price that is readily compatible with most flight sims. The one I have seen in the forums is expensive because of the awesome hardware setup, but it isn't necessarily compatible with DCS World. I also understand that DCS World doesn't necessarily generate the best force feedback signals for every module. For that kind of price, DCS World needs to generate good signals and the stick needs to be fully compatible with those signals.

I don't especially need basic vibrating effects, because the jetseat already does that for me, though I certainly want a force feedback stick to do that, too. Feeling the stick get harder to move with increased speed would be fantastic and if the motors could generate enough force, I would love to feel the controls locking up on aircraft that have this problem.

I wish the Winwing setup had come with a dedicated way to mount three MFDs. I am going to make some kind of crossbar that will attach to the desk or the Winwing desk mounts and get another MFD set so I can have three. I also need to make a swing arm side stand for the keyboard. But I don't fly the modern aircraft that much, so I am in no hurry.

Buy a short table mount with MFD attachments from Monstertech, and put it in between your Winwing mounting legs.

This is what I did with mine (Monstertech stand). Could mount two more on the side but I have to move the keyboard somewhere else and I’m doing ok with one--I use toggle switches to change control to other two DDIs.

If I got the monster mount, I would eliminate the winwing mount all together. I have some angled aluminum leftover from my F-4 cockpit project that will get the job done. I just need to make time to sketch a quick design and get it done. The winwing mount/stick has been sitting around for quite awhile. I would rather spend more time flying than modding :) I like pits built with the monster mount system. If I was starting from scratch, I might have gone that way all along. But it is fairly easy for me to work with wood and aluminum, I and already have a pretty good start on a complete pit...

I want to get my throttle, stick, and panels working on my F-4 cockpit before DCS releases its F-4, but it seems I still have quite a bit of time to do all that. But it is the recent progress I made on the F-4 project that sold me on getting the Winwing: I wanted the throttle and the desk clamp to free up my left console for conversion from TM throttle to real F-4 throttle, which is still going to use the TM throttle for the levers (hidden underneath with some sort of cable or pushrod connection.

 

My current installation:

Good god man, that keyboard from 1987? :smilewink:

I started using those keyboards around 2001. You can see another one just like it to the right on top of my old Athlon 64 PC that was built with WinXP 32 and still runs with Windows 7 64.

One aspect I liked about those keyboards was the two USB ports built in to them. I used to always use one port for the mouse, but the mouse supports a lot higher speed than USB 1.0. So, I now use one port for my Steel Beasts Pro PE license key. I also like the dual pigtail: the keyboard has both the old PS2 serial connetor and the USB, so if I don't want to tie up a USB port, I can unplug the US connector and the keyboard is fine minus the USB ports. I can type fairly fast and know the feel of these keys very well.

https://www.amazon.ca/Microsoft-C17-00001-Internet-Keyboard-Pro/dp/B00005MA9V

When my last one finally dies, I will probably get one of those expensive IBM reproduction keyboards. But those won't have all the extra function buttons across the top, the most used of which are the volume/mute buttons, which I can access even when blinded by VR. Some of the keys look polished from wear with the letters gone. One of the two "home" keys that have little ridges on them doesn't have a ridge anymore.

I used to have a supply of MS Intellimouse Explorer 3.0 USB mice as well, but I went through all of the original "good" ones years ago and later reproductions were never as good and died fairly quick. The Razer DeathAdder you can see on the desk is exactly the same shape.

I know what I like and I stick with it until I have no other choice :)

That looks amazing.