Wait... can amraam be used in SAM mode with no STT?

I was just reading the EA guide and there it state that the AIM120 can be guided over a bugged target in SAM mode without the need of an STT lock. So... do we already have the option to attack a target silently (TWS like)?

If that the case it is quite cool, is not multi target cappability but its a start.

PD: I'm not at home so I can't test it myself.

I was just reading the EA guide and there it state that the AIM120 can be guided over a bugged target in SAM mode without the need of an STT lock. So... do we already have the option to attack a target silently (TWS like)?

 

 

 

If that the case it is quite cool, is not multi target cappability but its a start.

 

 

 

PD: I'm not at home so I can't test it myself.

Not sure how any radar guided missle can attack any target "silently"? Also confused how TWS (Track While Scan) is stealthy, it's a radar mode? Only stealth I know of is to go silent radar and use Aim9M or Guns, but i'm happy to be educated!

Not sure how any radar guided missle can attack any target "silently"? Also confused how TWS (Track While Scan) is stealthy, it's a radar mode? Only stealth I know of is to go silent radar and use Aim9M or Guns, but i'm happy to be educated!

But you are right, the only total stealthy way is using heaters+no radar at all.

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

Yes it can/should be able too. The amraam just needs a track profile (which SAM builds) to be able to use for its ins and midcourse updates.

Yes. Tested it last night. When bugging someone in SAM, they do get STT nails. However, they do not get a launch warning, just the STT tone from the F-16, followed by the nails of the missile when it goes active.

So someone will know you're about to launch, they just won't know when you've launched.

NVM

Yes. Tested it last night. When bugging someone in SAM, they do get STT nails. However, they do not get a launch warning, just the STT tone from the F-16, followed by the nails of the missile when it goes active.

 

So someone will know you're about to launch, they just won't know when you've launched.

NAILS is not STT lock tone. SPIKE is STT lock tone.

So, AMRAAM in SAM mode should then be just as stealthy as TWS lock according to this.

*waves hand* Nails schmails. You understood what was meant. STT lock tone is STT lock tone.

*waves hand* Nails schmails. You understood what was meant. STT lock tone is STT lock tone.

Yes but if you are going to use brevity terms it might behoove you to use them correctly. Otherwise you sound goofy or uneducated trying to sound good. The way you said it is about the same as someone asking you if they should go left or right and you say both left and right.

after watching some videos of the DCS Viper I see that in SAM the radar does temporarily lock the enemy before doing a quick little scan (watch the radar "T" bracket during SAM). I would think that temporary lock could trigger a STT indication on the enemies RWR.

If the DCS Hornet locks a target for 1 second and goes back to scanning does it inform the enemy of a STT? If so, than SAM should generate a STT or interrupted STT. I imagine the same would be true for DTT since it works similarly.

e: nevermind, read viper instead of hornet.

Does the viper radar use STT waveform+processing during the bugged target revisit portion?

after watching some videos of the DCS Viper I see that in SAM the radar does temporarily lock the enemy before doing a quick little scan (watch the radar "T" bracket during SAM). I would think that temporary lock could trigger a STT indication on the enemies RWR.

 

If the DCS Hornet locks a target for 1 second and goes back to scanning does it inform the enemy of a STT? If so, than SAM should generate a STT or interrupted STT. I imagine the same would be true for DTT since it works similarly.

Ok so this isn’t correct, but this whole thread is kinda nutty so please don’t think I’m picking on you or whatever, just the most recent post. In general these forums are really imprecise with terminology. Careful when you see sentences that start with “I would think” or similar. Anyway, but when you bug a target in the f-16, or designate a trackfile l&s in the Hornet, you are not temporarily “locking” a target. You are not entering STT, you’re still in RWS. I realize that in the game these things are symbols on a display, but irl they change gimbal movement and energy emission detected by target. STT is distinct from search modes, different wave directed continuously at target, and will generate a lock warning.

In the hornet, when you designate a track l&s, it does not change the radar emissions. Look at what the radar is actually doing. The azimuth scan and elevation bars all stay the same. It is the pilot telling the mission computer thaw specified track is a priority, elevating it over the ranking the MC does automatically. That’s it. The radar does not temporarily lock the target, and should not generate a lock warning if DCS is modeling it correctly.

The f-16 SAM mode is different. When you bug a bandit the radar will increase its update frequency necessary to employ a 120 (about 3 seconds) but also provide a 25 deg azimuth slewable scan. This is the “T-bracket” you mentioned, which represents a physical change in what radar is doing, allowin g you to continue to search a small area or monitor the group while maintaining a firing solution on the bugged target. It’s not an STT lock and will not result in a RWR STT warble, but rl rwr are smarter than DCS. This is one of the things DCS dumbs down by necessity. How DCS will handles it now I don’t know. As a WIP it likely will change anyway. It might blip and promote your threat level, but it’s not STT.

I’m simplifying this, post commit in hornet at meld you change from search to group, decrease azimuth, bars, modulation, etc., to improve trackfile quality (or should at least). From target POV this is similar to SAM submode

Ok so this isn’t correct, but this whole thread is kinda nutty so please don’t think I’m picking on you or whatever, just the most recent post. In general these forums are really imprecise with terminology. Careful when you see sentences that start with “I would think” or similar. Anyway, but when you bug a target in the f-16, or designate a trackfile l&s in the Hornet, you are not temporarily “locking” a target. You are not entering STT, you’re still in RWS. I realize that in the game these things are symbols on a display, but irl they change gimbal movement and energy emission detected by target. STT is distinct from search modes, different wave directed continuously at target, and will generate a lock warning.

 

In the hornet, when you designate a track l&s, it does not change the radar emissions. Look at what the radar is actually doing. The azimuth scan and elevation bars all stay the same. It is the pilot telling the mission computer thaw specified track is a priority, elevating it over the ranking the MC does automatically. That’s it. The radar does not temporarily lock the target, and should not generate a lock warning if DCS is modeling it correctly.

 

The f-16 SAM mode is different. When you bug a bandit the radar will increase its update frequency necessary to employ a 120 (about 3 seconds) but also provide a 25 deg azimuth slewable scan. This is the “T-bracket” you mentioned, which represents a physical change in what radar is doing, allowin g you to continue to search a small area or monitor the group while maintaining a firing solution on the bugged target. It’s not an STT lock and will not result in a RWR STT warble, but rl rwr are smarter than DCS. This is one of the things DCS dumbs down by necessity. How DCS will handles it now I don’t know. As a WIP it likely will change anyway. It might blip and promote your threat level, but it’s not STT.

 

I’m simplifying this, post commit in hornet at meld you change from search to group, decrease azimuth, bars, modulation, etc., to improve trackfile quality (or should at least). From target POV this is similar to SAM submode

I am not incorrect.

I know the difference between a soft lock and a hard lock.

Watch the video below. During SAM the radar spends 2 seconds scanning and 2 seconds locked on to the bugged target. You can see this with the T bracket indicating antenna position.

A 2 second hard lock (the radar is staring at the target) should inform the the RWR of a lock on. This would be the same RWR indication if a Hornet locked switched between STT and RWS every 2 seconds.

I am not incorrect.

 

I know the difference between a soft lock and a hard lock.

 

Watch the video below. During SAM the radar spends 2 seconds scanning and 2 seconds locked on to the bugged target. You can see this with the T bracket indicating antenna position.

 

(3:30)

 

A 2 second hard lock (the radar is staring at the target) should inform the the RWR of a lock on. This would be the same RWR indication if a Hornet locked switched between STT and RWS every 2 seconds.

So your saying you identified a bug?

So your saying you identified a bug?

No, i'm saying its working correctly. SAM should give a STT warning to the enemy bugged in SAM. This is due to the radar locking the bugged target every 2 seconds for a duration of 2 seconds. (as indicated by the DCS video)

No, i'm saying its working correctly. SAM should give a STT warning to the enemy bugged in SAM. This is due to the radar locking the bugged target every 2 seconds for a duration of 2 seconds. (as indicated by the DCS video)

beamscanner not calling you out on this, much respect for your contributions around here but i think we are talking about different things. I tried to be specific in that I have no idea what the WIP DCS model is doing, but rather was discussing what it is supposed to do. SAM is a submode of RWS, an additional TMS Up over bugged target will command STT but not before. But again, who knows how ED has implemented this in the WIP state. As is, I can't get my hotas to swap bore/slave or step missile types, so certainly do not listen to me on the sim aspect.

This is what I see happening in the DCS Viper during SAM.

If this is the case, a hard lock of 2 seconds would trigger an enemy RWR. Now you might think that during the small search phase of SAM that the enemy RWR might stop indicating STT. But the enemy RWR memory would keep the STT indication for a period of several seconds. Thus the RWR would constantly indicate a STT.

I knew SAM had some dwell time on target but I didn't know it was as high as 50%. Makes you wonder how TTS or even MTS would work spending 100-200% of the time dwelling. That only leaves -100% to search. I wonder if the dwell time is variable and the FCR dwells less for targets which are easy to track and longer for challenging ones.

bugged target should not trigger the rwr of the target.

probably just EA thing, should be fix later.

It should trigger the RWR warning only when you are in STT mode, or when the missile goes active.

bugged target should not trigger the rwr of the target.

 

probably just EA thing, should be fix later.

I think you guys are being too quick to apply boolean logic to something that is probabilistic by nature.

One thing is - whether the F-16 FCR would change its waveform to STT waveform while locking a target in SAM.

Other thing is - whether the RWR in the locked aircraft would change its indication to the pilot.

If the RWR is being bombarded hundreds of times per second with energy of a certain freq, it may as well interprets it as being locked, as Beamscanner pointed out.

Now if you are claiming it shouldn't because in RL it doesn't, then how would you know it? Have you been locked by a F-16 in SAM mode while in another F-16 or F-18 or a Flanker and didnt received the lock tone? Then you shouldn't be speaking about it here in the forum...

We are left to interpret the RWR inner workings by the laws of physics and the public information available.

I think you guys are being too quick to apply boolean logic to something that is probabilistic by nature.

 

One thing is - whether the F-16 FCR would change its waveform to STT waveform while locking a target in SAM.

 

Other thing is - whether the RWR in the locked aircraft would change its indication to the pilot.

 

If the RWR is being bombarded hundreds of times per second with energy of a certain freq, it may as well interprets it as being locked, as Beamscanner pointed out.

 

Now if you are claiming it shouldn't because in RL it doesn't, then how would you know it? Have you been locked by a F-16 in SAM mode while in another F-16 or F-18 or a Flanker and didnt received the lock tone? Then you shouldn't be speaking about it here in the forum...

 

 

We are left to interpret the RWR inner workings by the laws of physics and the public information available.

let me provide you a reference, Growling Sidewinder had a DCS F16 VIPER AIR TO AIR Radar Tutorial.

I`m pretty sure he got this info from a different simulation.

we don`t have to interpret anything. it`s up to dev group how they want to do it.

so, yes, sam mode reduce the chance for being detected or considered a threat. the chance of revealing ownship position "may" be reduced.

if that`s true, how ?

if it`s not true. then why should we even consider using the sam mode ?

let me provide you a reference, Growling Sidewinder had a DCS F16 VIPER AIR TO AIR Radar Tutorial.

 

 

I`m pretty sure he got this info from a different simulation.

I know where does that info comes from given that I fly that simulation since the first versions released in the 2000s. However that simulation cannot be used as a reference for DCS due to various reasons.

we don`t have to interpret anythings. it`s up to dev group how they want to do it.

You did an interpretation yourself when you said "should not trigger". However the text you referenced uses the expression "reduced chance of being detected or

considered a threat - especially when compared to STT". Reduced is not zero.

ED so far has chosen to model as a 0% reduction, so it always trigger the RWR, and I cannot argue that they are wrong in ths regard.

I think you guys are being too quick to apply boolean logic to something that is probabilistic by nature.

..these forums are really imprecise with terminology. Careful when you see sentences that start with “I would think” or similar.

:music_whistling:

Kiddijng aside, Jackbauer’s on a right track. I’m also don’t care much what other sims do. Interested in what real plane does, and what happens, or will happen, in DCS. Also, Beamscanner – wanted to reply to your observed azimuth sweep, also I was intrigued so investigated a bit and did some testing

It’s hard to tell exactly what its doing for now as we have a sliver of the actual radar implemented and it’s all WIP. The F-16 radar is somewhat unique with its search while track submodes in both RWS and TWS. RWS has SAM and TTS submodes that allow for simultaneous track and search of up to two targets plus a scan volume dependent on range/distance b/w bugged targets, TTS might be (v)9), but those could behave differently. It is still just RWS with a high peak medium PRF waveform, but it’s a higher quality track than TWS in exchange for less simultaneous tracks and scan volume, and slightly higher detection probability. TWS has its own submode, SAM Multi Target Track (SMT), (also might be (v)9) which can track 8 (or 10?) in a TWS scan volume while bugging a target outside the scan pattern with RWS SAM. That too I assume would be different.

Side note- I hope we get the lock and shot line datalink. SAM and TTS submodes share via link 16 targets bugged by your wingmen, as dashed line on the HSD. Firing an aim-120 the dashed lock liner will flash and become a …. Shot line. Bunch of other cool tasking and sorting related datalink toys.

Anyway, the answer to what real RWR will do is it depends. RWR systems are not created equal, and performance depends on a lot of variables. RWR suffer from ambiguity, can show multiple threats where only one exists, incorrect emitter/threat identification, their performance degrades significantly if maneuvering, and are susceptible to interference/jamming, etc. Depending on the plane you’ve got antennas in multiple locations around the aircraft and depending on the tech era different sensitivities. The antenna can measure frequency, PRF, repetition frequency, time, power, duty cycle and other in right circumstances., those signals are processed calculate direction, compared to a table of emitters to ID the threat, and analysis of the RF to rank the threat. Emission are prioritized for analysis though, and in congested RF environments RWR will struggle, detection performance will decrease, and likelihood of detecting repetition frequency or whatever, and correlating to f-16 SAM mode, would be lower.. Similarly, a fighter currently engaged WVR will have more difficulty accessing azimuth and AOA. Though perhaps the same RWR In a low RF environment closing high aspect an RWR may be able to detect its being tracked. It's certainly less likely that CW or monopulse STT, but possible.

I texted a friend I fly with often who used to fly A’s w/ the pratt 200 (who introduced me to DCS ironically), he had little to add but iirc they had CW for aim-7’s so would have no firsthand experience. His answer was it depends and doesn’t matter, section tactics are different... which is a fair point.

Further unsatisfied I tested in DCS, after 15 minutes of frustration before realizing friend had not turned RWR on, we tested Hornet’s and Vipers and neither indicated a hard lock, so I couldn’t reproduce the results that started all this (we did run out of time though). I don’t think DCS does for any TWS though? Not sure.

So ya… lots of words, not much certainty. But realistically, the correct answer is it depends. As to what is happening in DCS, I'm curious what others are seeing?