Wait... can amraam be used in SAM mode with no STT? - Page 2 - ED Forums
 


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Old 10-21-2019, 06:53 AM   #11
Beamscanner
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after watching some videos of the DCS Viper I see that in SAM the radar does temporarily lock the enemy before doing a quick little scan (watch the radar "T" bracket during SAM). I would think that temporary lock could trigger a STT indication on the enemies RWR.

If the DCS Hornet locks a target for 1 second and goes back to scanning does it inform the enemy of a STT? If so, than SAM should generate a STT or interrupted STT. I imagine the same would be true for DTT since it works similarly.

Last edited by Beamscanner; 10-21-2019 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:11 AM   #12
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e: nevermind, read viper instead of hornet.

Does the viper radar use STT waveform+processing during the bugged target revisit portion?

Last edited by Santi871; 10-21-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamscanner View Post
after watching some videos of the DCS Viper I see that in SAM the radar does temporarily lock the enemy before doing a quick little scan (watch the radar "T" bracket during SAM). I would think that temporary lock could trigger a STT indication on the enemies RWR.

If the DCS Hornet locks a target for 1 second and goes back to scanning does it inform the enemy of a STT? If so, than SAM should generate a STT or interrupted STT. I imagine the same would be true for DTT since it works similarly.
Ok so this isn’t correct, but this whole thread is kinda nutty so please don’t think I’m picking on you or whatever, just the most recent post. In general these forums are really imprecise with terminology. Careful when you see sentences that start with “I would think” or similar. Anyway, but when you bug a target in the f-16, or designate a trackfile l&s in the Hornet, you are not temporarily “locking” a target. You are not entering STT, you’re still in RWS. I realize that in the game these things are symbols on a display, but irl they change gimbal movement and energy emission detected by target. STT is distinct from search modes, different wave directed continuously at target, and will generate a lock warning.

In the hornet, when you designate a track l&s, it does not change the radar emissions. Look at what the radar is actually doing. The azimuth scan and elevation bars all stay the same. It is the pilot telling the mission computer thaw specified track is a priority, elevating it over the ranking the MC does automatically. That’s it. The radar does not temporarily lock the target, and should not generate a lock warning if DCS is modeling it correctly.

The f-16 SAM mode is different. When you bug a bandit the radar will increase its update frequency necessary to employ a 120 (about 3 seconds) but also provide a 25 deg azimuth slewable scan. This is the “T-bracket” you mentioned, which represents a physical change in what radar is doing, allowin g you to continue to search a small area or monitor the group while maintaining a firing solution on the bugged target. It’s not an STT lock and will not result in a RWR STT warble, but rl rwr are smarter than DCS. This is one of the things DCS dumbs down by necessity. How DCS will handles it now I don’t know. As a WIP it likely will change anyway. It might blip and promote your threat level, but it’s not STT.

I’m simplifying this, post commit in hornet at meld you change from search to group, decrease azimuth, bars, modulation, etc., to improve trackfile quality (or should at least). From target POV this is similar to SAM submode
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Old 10-21-2019, 09:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk000tch View Post
Ok so this isn’t correct, but this whole thread is kinda nutty so please don’t think I’m picking on you or whatever, just the most recent post. In general these forums are really imprecise with terminology. Careful when you see sentences that start with “I would think” or similar. Anyway, but when you bug a target in the f-16, or designate a trackfile l&s in the Hornet, you are not temporarily “locking” a target. You are not entering STT, you’re still in RWS. I realize that in the game these things are symbols on a display, but irl they change gimbal movement and energy emission detected by target. STT is distinct from search modes, different wave directed continuously at target, and will generate a lock warning.

In the hornet, when you designate a track l&s, it does not change the radar emissions. Look at what the radar is actually doing. The azimuth scan and elevation bars all stay the same. It is the pilot telling the mission computer thaw specified track is a priority, elevating it over the ranking the MC does automatically. That’s it. The radar does not temporarily lock the target, and should not generate a lock warning if DCS is modeling it correctly.

The f-16 SAM mode is different. When you bug a bandit the radar will increase its update frequency necessary to employ a 120 (about 3 seconds) but also provide a 25 deg azimuth slewable scan. This is the “T-bracket” you mentioned, which represents a physical change in what radar is doing, allowin g you to continue to search a small area or monitor the group while maintaining a firing solution on the bugged target. It’s not an STT lock and will not result in a RWR STT warble, but rl rwr are smarter than DCS. This is one of the things DCS dumbs down by necessity. How DCS will handles it now I don’t know. As a WIP it likely will change anyway. It might blip and promote your threat level, but it’s not STT.

I’m simplifying this, post commit in hornet at meld you change from search to group, decrease azimuth, bars, modulation, etc., to improve trackfile quality (or should at least). From target POV this is similar to SAM submode
I am not incorrect.

I know the difference between a soft lock and a hard lock.

Watch the video below. During SAM the radar spends 2 seconds scanning and 2 seconds locked on to the bugged target. You can see this with the T bracket indicating antenna position.

https://youtu.be/mpPY7HJ3sKo?t=205 (3:30)

A 2 second hard lock (the radar is staring at the target) should inform the the RWR of a lock on. This would be the same RWR indication if a Hornet locked switched between STT and RWS every 2 seconds.

Last edited by Beamscanner; 10-21-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 10-21-2019, 10:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beamscanner View Post
I am not incorrect.

I know the difference between a soft lock and a hard lock.

Watch the video below. During SAM the radar spends 2 seconds scanning and 2 seconds locked on to the bugged target. You can see this with the T bracket indicating antenna position.

https://youtu.be/mpPY7HJ3sKo?t=205 (3:30)

A 2 second hard lock (the radar is staring at the target) should inform the the RWR of a lock on. This would be the same RWR indication if a Hornet locked switched between STT and RWS every 2 seconds.
So your saying you identified a bug?
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krippz View Post
So your saying you identified a bug?
No, i'm saying its working correctly. SAM should give a STT warning to the enemy bugged in SAM. This is due to the radar locking the bugged target every 2 seconds for a duration of 2 seconds. (as indicated by the DCS video)
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Beamscanner View Post
No, i'm saying its working correctly. SAM should give a STT warning to the enemy bugged in SAM. This is due to the radar locking the bugged target every 2 seconds for a duration of 2 seconds. (as indicated by the DCS video)
beamscanner not calling you out on this, much respect for your contributions around here but i think we are talking about different things. I tried to be specific in that I have no idea what the WIP DCS model is doing, but rather was discussing what it is supposed to do. SAM is a submode of RWS, an additional TMS Up over bugged target will command STT but not before. But again, who knows how ED has implemented this in the WIP state. As is, I can't get my hotas to swap bore/slave or step missile types, so certainly do not listen to me on the sim aspect.
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Old 10-21-2019, 11:57 AM   #18
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This is what I see happening in the DCS Viper during SAM.



If this is the case, a hard lock of 2 seconds would trigger an enemy RWR. Now you might think that during the small search phase of SAM that the enemy RWR might stop indicating STT. But the enemy RWR memory would keep the STT indication for a period of several seconds. Thus the RWR would constantly indicate a STT.
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Old 10-21-2019, 04:52 PM   #19
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I knew SAM had some dwell time on target but I didn't know it was as high as 50%. Makes you wonder how TTS or even MTS would work spending 100-200% of the time dwelling. That only leaves -100% to search. I wonder if the dwell time is variable and the FCR dwells less for targets which are easy to track and longer for challenging ones.
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Old 10-21-2019, 05:17 PM   #20
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bugged target should not trigger the rwr of the target.

probably just EA thing, should be fix later.
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