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Grudge Match 3 - Sign Up Thread


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People are usually HOTAS anyways and workload kept to a strict minimum when things get hairy. Advanced avionics may even help with more advanced features and capabilities sometimes.

 

@Turbo: thanks mate, it seems I wasnt aware Hook allowed it( I think because refueling rearming the Viggen has not been fully tested yet)

 

I will lift those fouls asap.

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This is a good conversation to have so I'd say lets have it. If mods want to move it elsewhere it would be good as more people get to find it. To put simply what Stuge said, the complexity of air combat isn't in the aircaft systems but in the tactics, operations and strategy, the stuff that the guy on the other side tries to make as complex as he can.

 

The avionics and weapons capabilities and aircraft flight dynamics dictate what you can do and that in turn dictates what kind of tactics you need to prepare to use or encounter. It's the capabilities, not the switches that have the most impact on cognitive complexity. In that regard F-15C and Su-27 are the most complex modules in DCS currently as they have the most flexible capabilities and hence most tactical options available to them. BMS F-16 is on a similar level as is also the DCS M2000C.

 

You can master avionics in a few months but mastering BFM, ACM and BVR tactics in a modern fighter takes years. I have been flying and training with the F-15C weekly since it came out (is it three years ago?) as stand alone module and I have still lots of stuff to learn about how to employ it tactically. In comparison it took me about half a year to learn the A-10C avionics into muscle memory.

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Stuge, just wanted to check, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm seeing a lot of invalid respawns for redfor in the match resulting in several lost points. I'm pretty sure in the match briefing that Hooks OKed selecting role instead of rearming, due to the viggen situation and various bugs(R-60M tone). At least that was the impression I was under. Not knocking anybody here, just want to make sure that didn't get missed somewhere.

 

Thanks!

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Respawns after landings should not count as losses (as clarified by Hook prior to the match start). The scoring is wrong.

 

If u mean scoring is wrong because of invalid respawns counting as fouls, then you must have skipped what I said 2 posts above.

 

If you mean there is something else, then you can make a claim as instructed. Until then, Tacview says you scored 2 points and got wrecked 3 times, which means fouls or not your score will remain below nil so no ranking points.


Edited by FLANKERATOR

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If you mean there is something else, then you can make a claim as instructed. Until then, Tacview says you scored 2 points and got wrecked 3 times, which means fouls or not your score will remain below nil so no ranking points.

 

Lol Flank. And hence why it's wrong. I'll post a more detailed description if I have time later.

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Great mission great flying by all and nice scoring.

 

Though i've got to give huge credit to Tek who was clearly my choice for most valuable player.

To score more points than the 2 selected mvps combined (13-5 vs 6-2+6-2) goes down in my book as something special. I know he can't post in these forums but Fantastic job matey.:thumbup:

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Lol Flank. And hence why it's wrong. I'll post a more detailed description if I have time later.

 

Until then, I'm going to disregard your statement then :)

 

Great mission great flying by all and nice scoring.

 

Though i've got to give huge credit to Tek who was clearly my choice for most valuable player.

To score more points than the 2 selected mvps combined (13-5 vs 6-2+6-2) goes down in my book as something special. I know he can't post in these forums but Fantastic job matey.:thumbup:

 

Overall, Tek was MVP no doubt, but SA rankings comes in two flavors, A2A and A2G. After this event, I feel more and more that a Multirole rankings is needed. It would come into play only for events where players fly multirole aircraft and are tasked with taking out both air and land targets.

 

This way whatever is scored by the player will decide mvp without the need to separate air kills from ground kills. Easy to implement, I just need to give it a more thorough thought as don't want to clutter the rankings system, we already have nation and squadron based rankings for both A2A and A2G.

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Just taking the tacview 'scoresheet' is fraught with errors. It will 'fill in the gaps' and occasionally confabulate events. You have me recorded as scoring only 2 kills and 3 losses (wreckings?). Wrong.

 

08:14:40 - KH66 hit Elenya cargo ship. Before it 'sinks' it is hit by another Kh66 from Tek (3 seconds after first impact)

 

08:14:25 - R60m F5 kill. I fire a missile one second after a teammate who damages an F5. My missile destroys him. R60m have firecracker warheads so it often takes 2. Its either my kill, an assist, or my team mates kill but if its the latter than I should be awarded another kill later on in the match (see below).

 

08:38:42 - R60m Viggen Kill. I get a head on kill and the Viggen is fragmenting and in an inverted dive at 80m and unrecoverable before he is hit by a teammates R60m.

 

08:42:00 - R60m F5 kill.

 

08:53:40 - R60m disables an F5. He 'lands' in the sea and I confirm the kill with a guns strafe at 08:54:40.

 

09:35:55 - R60m Viggen Kill.

 

I concede the 3 losses. So the true score is 4/4.5/5:3. Thats without the ship kill. Just going through track/tacview a 2:3 'wreck' is converted to a 4 or 5:3 ratio. If everyone bothered to verify their tracks/tacviews they may find similar errors in scoring. I doubt everybody does. A critical thinker may then question how accurate the scoring tally really is the over the long term.

 

I also have to agree with Frostie here. Im not sure how Tek is not the official MVP when he scores the most A2A and A2G of the entire team with the least relative losses. A team that unlike previous JW type events all flew the same aircraft. Changing the rules and the scoring mechanism after the event just obscures it further. Why are losses counted twice? We're all in the same aircraft in the same mission! Tek had 5 losses in the match but they are counted against him in the A2A scoring and then counted again in the A2G scoring. Its convoluted and makes no sense.

 

Ultimately though the its not the SA points that matter. Rather its that fact that many people (including previous event participants) were put off by the fact that to guarantee a place you needed to be highly SA ranked. If thats the case then the scoring needs to be both accurate and transparent.

 

Going by previous rounds this event should have been a sellout. A great setup. A great host. A chance to see and fly against the Viggen first hand. Prizes for winners and participants. Ultimately though it was undersubscribed. The teams had to be shuffled and the player pool was reduced from 20 to 16. People were put off or intimidated by the SA ranking stipulation. You came in to criticism earlier in the event for it and complainants were brushed aside. Thats fine. But then you must ensure that the scoring is accurate, fair and transparent otherwise you open yourself up to the sort of criticism you had at signup. Also using terms like this

got wrecked
on participants does not give the impression of an unbiased observer. So I 'score a point' when I get a kill but 'get wrecked' when I am shot down?:). Im always up for a bit of competitive (friendly) banter. But when it comes in a less than friendly manner from the event adjudicator when I justifiably question the scoring? Hmmm..See above.

 

Ultimately I loved the event. I loved flying with my teammates. I loved flying against the opposition. And I loved watching it all over again on the twitch stream the following day. I simply cant wait for the next one.

 

Thanks again to everyone involved. :pilotfly:


Edited by ///Rage

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I agree with these things.

Just a thought for MVP, going off of pure score is one way to do it, but it also does not allow for unscorable intangibles, things like whose strategy was it, who lead the team and kept it coordinated, who kept everybody's SA up, or pulled a save out of thin air. Stuff that we who participated can definitely all talk to, but that will probly not show up in the scoresheet.

Team voting for MVP is a possible solution in these kinds of matches. IE everybody rank everybody else on your team for MVP secretly, and that gets factored in to the MVP calculation.

 

I would vote for Tek as well, due to his pushing our Alpha strike that gave team Fishbed such a strong lead and solid momentum for the entire match.

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...

 

You should of understood by now that this is not the place to make claims. This forum has rules and one of them says 'No MP disputes'. I have clearly mentioned that all claims must be posted on SA forum only.

 

Yes, Tacview is prone to errors sometimes and lot of things could go under the radar, hence why there is a claiming period before results are confirmed.

 

Please read again and follow the procedures. It will be easier for you and for everyone else.

 

Copy paste your post in a new thread HERE, then I shall have a look at it.

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AAR updates:

 

- Respawning fouls all removed for everyone (exception for this match because of Viggen)

- Multirole scoring added.

- Battefacts added.

 

20 hours left before claiming period is over, if you want to claim anything, post a thread here:

http://www.sa-sim.com/wp-content/forums/viewforum.php?f=39

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I agree with these things.

Just a thought for MVP, going off of pure score is one way to do it, but it also does not allow for unscorable intangibles, things like whose strategy was it, who lead the team and kept it coordinated, who kept everybody's SA up, or pulled a save out of thin air. Stuff that we who participated can definitely all talk to, but that will probly not show up in the scoresheet.

Team voting for MVP is a possible solution in these kinds of matches. IE everybody rank everybody else on your team for MVP secretly, and that gets factored in to the MVP calculation.

 

I would vote for Tek as well, due to his pushing our Alpha strike that gave team Fishbed such a strong lead and solid momentum for the entire match.

 

We had an MVP community voting in GM2. This time around, we decided to do a betting contest.

 

Anyway, community voting wont affect scoring - it is as you said, intangible and subjective.

We can only score what can be measured but people can vote for whoever they want.

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You should of understood by now that this is not the place to make claims. This forum has rules and one of them says 'No MP disputes'. I have clearly mentioned that all claims must be posted on SA forum only.

 

I'd like to remind you that it was you that first got into the specifics of my kills and losses here on ED. I simply corrected and verified the tacview events with timestamps at your invitation. Besides, there is no dispute here. Im just filling in the events the tacview event logger missed. The initial sign up post and the rulebook we were asked to agree to never mentioned we had to make claims outside of the ED forums. If you mentioned it it wasnt here, and not before the event.

 

Ultimately it doesnt really matter since we have our free viggens;).

 

Its up to you though whether you deliberately upload incorrect scores to SA-SIM.


Edited by ///Rage

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I'd like to remind you that it was you that first got into the specifics of my kills and losses here on ED. I simply corrected and verified the tacview events with timestamps at your invitation. Besides, there is no dispute here. Im just filling in the events the tacview event logger missed. The initial sign up post and the rulebook we were asked to agree to never mentioned we had to make claims outside of the ED forums. If you mentioned it it wasnt here, and not before the event.

 

Ultimately it doesnt really matter since we have our free viggens;).

 

Its up to you though whether you deliberately upload incorrect scores to SA-SIM.

 

As said before, follow the procedure if you want to make claims whether it had been mentioned before or not.

 

If it doesn't matter, then why don't you spare yourself the headache and get over a bad result. We don't always win. Be happy that your teammates did good enough to offset your poor performance and allowed you to get a prize.

 

And yes, it's up to me to validate the results once the claiming period is over. You've got a shot at it, if you don't care, then let go.

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As said before, follow the procedure if you want to make claims whether it had been mentioned before or not.

 

If it doesn't matter, then why don't you spare yourself the headache and get over a bad result. We don't always win. Be happy that your teammates did good enough to offset your poor performance and allowed you to get a prize.

 

And yes, it's up to me to validate the results once the claiming period is over. You've got a shot at it, if you don't care, then let go.

 

Poor performance? Lol. Have you read anything above? I wouldn't call 6-3 a poor performance and I'm sure my team mates would back me up. The breakdown is there for everyone to see.

 

Feel free to fill SA-SIM with whatever you like.


Edited by ///Rage

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Poor performance? Lol. Have you read anything above? I wouldn't call 6-3 a poor performance and I'm sure my team mates would back me up. The breakdown is there for everyone to see.

 

Feel free to fill SA-SIM with whatever you like.

 

Likewise, feel free to think whatever you like if it helps gilding the pill for you.

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