STT AIM-54 Launch Warning - off the rail

Was training with buddy in F-18 the other night, and noticed that he gets a launch warning from the AIM-54 as soon as it's launched if I have him STT locked (at any range - we tried 50nm, 30nm, and 20nm). In TWS, he doesn't get a launch warning until the missile goes active.

That does not happen with the 120. When the 18 has me STT locked, and he fires a 120, I do not get a launch warning until the missile goes active.

Is this working as intended?

In STT the AIM-54 should act as a Fox1 missile all the way to the target (unlike the AMRAAM?), so yes, I think that's how it should be working. What's still missing (because of the limitations in ED's missile engine) is that the guidance of the Phoenix does not change between STT and TWS launches, it's active off the rail regardless (which is wrong).

In STT the AIM-54 should act as a Fox1 missile all the way to the target (unlike the AMRAAM?), so yes, I think that's how it should be working. What's still missing (because of the limitations in ED's missile engine) is that the guidance of the Phoenix does not change between STT and TWS launches, it's active off the rail regardless (which is wrong).

I appreciate the response, but that's not entirely how it works IRL or in DCS. IRL, the AIM-54 receives guidance through antenna in the rear of the missile as well as the seeker head itself, and does receive a command to go active at the appropriate time, even when launched in STT, which cannot be modeled properly in DCS right now... i get that. Also, in DCS, the AIM-54 is not active off the rail. It goes active at about 15 miles.

Also, in previous patches, the AIM-54 did not give a launch warning right off the rail when STT locked, that's why I'm asking.

I appreciate the response, but that's not entirely how it works IRL or in DCS. IRL, the AIM-54 receives guidance through antenna in the rear of the missile as well as the seeker head itself, and does receive a command to go active at the appropriate time, even when launched in STT, which cannot be modeled properly in DCS right now... i get that. Also, in DCS, the AIM-54 is not active off the rail. It goes active at about 15 miles.

 

Also, in previous patches, the AIM-54 did not give a launch warning right off the rail when STT locked, that's why I'm asking.

Yes, but i believe you should still get a launch warning if you launch at someone in STT. Are you thinking about TWS? Because you should not get a launch warning in that mode until the missile itself goes active.

I appreciate the response, but that's not entirely how it works IRL or in DCS. IRL, the AIM-54 receives guidance through antenna in the rear of the missile as well as the seeker head itself, and does receive a command to go active at the appropriate time, even when launched in STT, which cannot be modeled properly in DCS right now... i get that. Also, in DCS, the AIM-54 is not active off the rail. It goes active at about 15 miles.

 

Also, in previous patches, the AIM-54 did not give a launch warning right off the rail when STT locked, that's why I'm asking.

No, in STT it is STT until impact, it does not go active.

No, in STT it is STT until impact, it does not go active.

Indeed, unlike the AIM-120.

I appreciate the response, but that's not entirely how it works IRL or in DCS. IRL, the AIM-54 receives guidance through antenna in the rear of the missile as well as the seeker head itself, and does receive a command to go active at the appropriate time, even when launched in STT, which cannot be modeled properly in DCS right now... i get that. Also, in DCS, the AIM-54 is not active off the rail. It goes active at about 15 miles.

 

Also, in previous patches, the AIM-54 did not give a launch warning right off the rail when STT locked, that's why I'm asking.

Currently the AIM-54 is indeed active off the rail https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4001920&postcount=33

No, in STT it is STT until impact, it does not go active.

This is simply incorrect. Not trying to be rude, but your comment is not correct. The AWG-9 can both guide the AIM-54 via an STT lock AND send target data via antenna on the back of the AIM-54 and signal it to go active. That's just how it works. Feel free to prove me wrong with actual SME quotations on the matter. Also, you can see from TLTeo's comment above that IronMike clearly states that STT locks help guide the AIM-54, which means it is also actively guiding itself as well.

TLTeo, i believe IronMike is referring to shots inside 15 miles, which would be active off the rail since 54's go active at 15 miles in DCS right now. I believe that should actually be closer to 10 miles... but why fix something like that when there's a bunch more to fix regarding missile guidance.

Was training with buddy in F-18 the other night, and noticed that he gets a launch warning from the AIM-54 as soon as it's launched if I have him STT locked (at any range - we tried 50nm, 30nm, and 20nm). In TWS, he doesn't get a launch warning until the missile goes active.

 

That does not happen with the 120. When the 18 has me STT locked, and he fires a 120, I do not get a launch warning until the missile goes active.

 

Is this working as intended?

TWS - No, you should NOT get a launch warning until the missile goes pitbull (whether it does it on it's own or you command the missile to go active)

STT - Yes, you should get a missile launch warning regardless of if the missile is active.

This is working as intended at least on the 14's side of things. I have never had the problem of not getting a missile launch warning against the 18 (i.e. if they STT lock me and launch, I always get a warning, even before the missile goes pitbull). If you are experiencing something different, then you might want to file a bug report with ED in the F/A-18 forum area.

I have never had the problem of not getting a missile launch warning against the 18 (i.e. if they STT lock me and launch, I always get a warning, even before the missile goes pitbull).

This is not the case and has never been the case (and is not correct behavior either). If you're experiencing this YOUR game is bugged.

This is not the case and has never been the case (and is not correct behavior either). If you're experiencing this YOUR game is bugged.

I don’t know what to tell you other than you are incorrect. In the F-14 if someone STT locks you then launches a missile, you WILL get a launch warning. You will NOT, however, get a warning if the bandit launches on you in TWS until the missile goes pitbull. This is the same with all other modern RWRs currently in game.

This is the same STT locking someone in the F-14. The bandit will get a lock warning, then when the 14 STT launches, they WILL get a launch warning if they have a modern RWR. Some aircraft without modern RWRs, like the mig21, cannot distinguish between lock and launch. However, the F-18 has an RWR that can distinguish between STT lock and launch. So, in the OP when he says the 18 gets a launch warning when he shoots a 54 STT, this is working as intended.

You said when the 18 launches you get an immediate warning. I only get a warning when the AIM-120 actually goes active. It has always been that way and should be the correct behavior. The missile PRF and radio signature is not the same as aircraft FCR.

I only get a warning when the AIM-120 actually goes active.

That means it was launched in TWS. If it was launched in STT it would give you launch warning at the moment of launch.

That means it was launched in TWS. If it was launched in STT it would give you launch warning at the moment of launch.

The F-18 doesn't have TWS in DCS my guy.

You said when the 18 launches you get an immediate warning. I only get a warning when the AIM-120 actually goes active. It has always been that way and should be the correct behavior. The missile PRF and radio signature is not the same as aircraft FCR.

then you have a bug with your game as i, and everyone I know, get a launch warning. This happens first upon initial launch, then there is a separate warning when the missile goes active

should be the correct behavior.

This would be correct behavior if the missile had been launched TWS, not STT. Even you , in another post, have indicated that the RWR gives you a warning upon launch in Single Target Track: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4044750&postcount=1

Generally the RWR gives the pilot audio pitch that correlates to the frequency of the scan and the PRF of the radar (with increasing PRF represented by higher frequency tones and higher volume alerts) for instance:

 

Search radar: low tone and infrequent chirps

Radar lock (spike): higher pitch, steady warble

Launch: very high pitch, loud rapid modulating alert

Missile: highest pitch, highest volume, and highest frequency modulating alert

...

So, i do not know why you are disagreeing here.

then you have a bug with your game as i, and everyone I know, get a launch warning. This happens first upon initial launch, then there is a separate warning when the missile goes active

 

This would be correct behavior if the missile had been launched TWS, not STT. Even you , in another post have indicated that the RWR gives you a warning upon launch in Single Target Track: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4044750&postcount=1

 

So, i do not know why you are disagreeing here.

Well I don't know how classified radar and RWR systems work for certain. If you do and are willing to share, I'm all ears! ;)

But, the obvious answer here is that for an ARH missile like the AIM-120 or AIM-54, the radar would not need to switch into a launch PRF because the missile is not guiding in a semi-active mode. The missile is simply receiving datalink information from the aircraft FCR. This is useful because the enemy does not know they have been launched on until the missile goes active. If the FCR switches into a launch PRF for an ARH missile it would:

1) be pointless as it doesn't help the missile's guidance

2) needlessly alert the enemy to the launch when it has no benefit

Thus, I would conclude the FCR does NOT switch to a SARH launch PRF when an ARH missile is launched from STT.

Well I don't know how classified radar and RWR systems work for certain. If you do and are willing to share, I'm all ears! ;)

 

But, the obvious answer here is that for an ARH missile like the AIM-120 or AIM-54, the radar would not need to switch into a launch PRF because the missile is not guiding in a semi-active mode. The missile is simply receiving datalink information from the aircraft FCR. This is useful because the enemy does not know they have been launched on until the missile goes active. If the FCR switches into a launch PRF for an ARH missile it would:

1) be pointless as it doesn't help the missile's guidance

2) needlessly alert the enemy to the launch when it has no benefit

 

Thus, I would conclude the FCR does NOT switch to a SARH launch PRF when an ARH missile is launched from STT.

If you could share where you are getting this info, that would be great. However, to me, it looks like you are still confusing STT with TWS.

As for the 54, at least the A version, I do know that if you STT launch it, it is a fox 1 all the way to the target unless manually commanded to go active.

If you could share where you are getting this info, that would be great. However, to me, it looks like you are still confusing STT with TWS.

 

As for the 54, at least the A version, I do know that if you STT launch it, it is a fox 1 all the way to the target unless manually commanded to go active.

don't know what to say man, but you're just wrong... but I've hosted a bunch of AA training sessions where we dodge 120's and practice re-engaging and the AIM-120 when launched from the hornet in STT does not give a launch warning until it goes active... period, the end of story. Go test it with a friend... that's just how it is. And that's how it was with the AIM-54 until a patch or two ago.

The main difference in communication between aircraft and missile with the 54 and the 120 is the 54 uses radar antenna in the rear of the missile to receive information from the AWG-9, where the 120 uses a radio data link system. They both do essentially the same thing, though, which is receive radar information processed in the aircraft firing the missile. STT firing fox3 does not have to mean you get a launch warning when you're on the receiving end. It's about how the radar beam changes when the missile is fired, which is what triggers a launch warning in the target's RWR.

...The main difference in communication between aircraft and missile with the 54 and the 120 is the 54 uses radar antenna in the rear of the missile to receive information from the AWG-9, where the 120 uses a radio data link system. They both do essentially the same thing, though, which is receive radar information processed in the aircraft firing the missile. STT firing fox3 does not have to mean you get a launch warning when you're on the receiving end. It's about how the radar beam changes when the missile is fired, which is what triggers a launch warning in the target's RWR.

I am willing to accept that this is the case IRL if reputable sources are provided that prove me wrong.

However, as it stands in game since the F-18 and F-14's release, the behavior you indicated below could not have changed as ED has not updated missile guidance, and they are the only ones who have the ability to do so:

...

when launched from the hornet in STT does not give a launch warning until it goes active... period, the end of story. Go test it with a friend... that's just how it is. And that's how it was with the AIM-54 until a patch or two ago.

...

i.e. If you are noticing launch warnings while being STT locked and believe that this was changed recently, then unless you can provide patch notes that indicate that ED has changed missile guidance characteristics, it has been like that in game for a very long time and you are simply just now noticing it.

Video proof on 11/26/2018:

- Initial lock and launch.

As you can see:

• He got a lock warning as he was STT locked by the enemy F-18
  
• He received a launch warning right off the rail before the missiles went active as indicated by the flashing 18 on the RWR and the rapid audio cues
  
• Finally, the symbology on the RWR changed to a "M" when the missiles go active with the same rapid audio as above
  

- Tacview of that ^^ moment of the engagement, so that you can see that the exact timing of the missile launch coincided with above:

There has been a good deal of patching since 11/2018. Like I said above, I am willing to accept that the way you describe it is how it should behave in real life if you can provide documentation or sources showing otherwise. However, this (as it is currently reflected in the game)...

...

when launched from the hornet in STT does not give a launch warning until it goes active... period, the end of story. Go test it with a friend... that's just how it is. And that's how it was with the AIM-54 until a patch or two ago.

...

...is simply incorrect as proven by the video evidence above. This has been the experience of both me and everyone I have flown with since I have started playing this game in 2016 (against F-15's as the 18 was not released yet).

This is the most recent comment I could find by ED that addresses updating missile guidance/seeker characteristics:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4040196&postcount=170

As you can see again, ED has not yet updated the seeker code for the fox 3 missiles, but they hope to do so soon, even providing a template for 3rd parties to use.

You said when the 18 launches you get an immediate warning. I only get a warning when the AIM-120 actually goes active. It has always been that way and should be the correct behavior. The missile PRF and radio signature is not the same as aircraft FCR.

see my comment above

This is how it should and will be eventually: PDSTT with range >10NM: LTE 3s, loft, SARH/DL, missile does not go active (SARH/DL all the way to target).

However atm this is not the case. A SARH missile also should not give you a launch warning, only a lock warning, all the way up until impact. At least in the phoenix' case. However atm in the game it is different, a all SARH launches and STT launches will give you a missile launch warning right away. to my humble knowledge that is wrong.

What I meant in the quoted post is "as it acted in combination with the bug, the radar still helps although it is active from rail". Hope that is clearer, but most and foremost that was simply a speculation on trying to sort out what all the issues were in that particular conversation. Taken out of context, it is kinda right, since SARH all the way, but indeed wrong if you understand it like that, that it also guides active. It doesn't (or shouldn't as I have to say, as it does right now until we fixed it.)

I hope I didnt confuse you guys more now.

[

However atm this is not the case. A SARH missile also should not give you a launch warning, only a lock warning, all the way up until impact. At least in the phoenix' case.

Maybe if you have a crappy, really old RWR.

Most radars will inject additional signal for guiding the missile aside from the datalink. This includes switching to preferred high prf and potentially injecting additional pulses for guidance. All in all, a little different than 'good ole' STT.

And for simplicity's sake in DCS it's assumed every RWR capable of detecting launches at all is able to detect SARH guidance with 100% confidence every single time. So for the sake of consistency I hope the Tomcat produces launch warnings on other RWRs when launching phoenix in SARH.

This is how it should and will be eventually: PDSTT with range >10NM: LTE 3s, loft, SARH/DL, missile does not go active (SARH/DL all the way to target).

 

However atm this is not the case. A SARH missile also should not give you a launch warning, only a lock warning, all the way up until impact. At least in the phoenix' case. However atm in the game it is different, a all SARH launches and STT launches will give you a missile launch warning right away. to my humble knowledge that is wrong.

 

What I meant in the quoted post is "as it acted in combination with the bug, the radar still helps although it is active from rail". Hope that is clearer, but most and foremost that was simply a speculation on trying to sort out what all the issues were in that particular conversation. Taken out of context, it is kinda right, since SARH all the way, but indeed wrong if you understand it like that, that it also guides active. It doesn't (or shouldn't as I have to say, as it does right now until we fixed it.)

 

I hope I didnt confuse you guys more now.

What happens if you lose lock? Does the 54 go active? Also, how do you know this given it's classified?

The 54 goes active if the AWG-9 sends it the command to do so. AFAIK if lock is lost, that command might well be sent on the DL channel.