Missile Evasion in F-15?

You are good enough to win the european championship...

but with BVR=BFM i meant that exactly how i wrote it ....(think about it) :smilewink:

no not equal. They fall under the same category in many cases but

certainly not completely equal. But of course they have many equal elements

on an abstract level :).

btw AS we won that because : I did not dogfight

Fly fast, wait for enemies to fly slow, swoop down and fire and burn away

try that snake thing vs me..and i tell you after that why that wont fly :D

Personally, I havnt really tried that snaking tactic, but I often use the barrel roll evasion and it works with only mixed success for me...

How do people rate the barrel roll? In the training track (

Analogy:

 

imagine your girlfriend is angry and is throwing with plates at you.

 

1. you dodge them as they close to your face

2. or you make sure you left that room long before she comes to that stuipid idea?

 

 

:megalol:

is this a common situation for you?:music_whistling:

You are Greek right? In Australia we just kick each other up the backside with giant boots....

Awesome vid Funkster,

 

I have read much in the forums about missile performance being under modelled. A single long range stick seems ridiculously easy to dodge.

 

Are we meant to be playing with the missile slider set to 100??

Many thanks indeed... :)

@yoda:

let your mind sink on that one.....(BVR=BFM)

If you understand the basics and principles of BFM ...then apply that to a BVR scenario.... you will see, you are not doing anything different...just aligned execution due to the fact of other values of course.

Very similar AS, but not equal. you dont fire tws in a dogfight ,

u dont use Vertical scan from 60 nm :P.

But sure, 80% the same maybe ?

 

You are Greek right? In Australia we just kick each other up the backside with giant boots....

Maybe this is your way, but i dont think, that this is a civilised way here in GERMANY !!

But believe me, im already amused about your emotional response..or should i say...your "feeling offended and replying rude" back reason -without reasons- in that post above.

Virtual overdosis of testosterone?

A noob question but.. what is a Crank Yoda? :)

Sorry i'm practically clueless in Dogfight terminology..

A noob question but.. what is a Crank Yoda? :)

 

Sorry i'm practically clueless in Dogfight terminology..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevity_code

see Crank

I see so it's somehow similar to an F-pole then.

Thought it was some High g-force roll or something....

Here pauldy.....maybe that helps

http://www.as-private.com/FlightDocs/F-A-northpole-andSantaclause.txt

A noob question but.. what is a Crank Yoda? :)

 

Sorry i'm practically clueless in Dogfight terminology..

Sry my fault.

The maneuver itself is not that important, only that you have an idea in your

mind, in 3D space, you must know "this is where the missile is going".

For example if it is tracking you and you are going "to the right", then themissile

is likely also going "to the right", so to speak.

Now if you break its lock, it will keep going mostly "to the right",

whereas you can turn "to the left" ;).

Don't make fancy maneuvers. They will only make you :

1. Forget where the missile is

2. Forget where you are :P

...also forget where the ground and sky are :D

The snaking move is good if you are running away from a missile. You have to really watch your speed and figure out about how far the missile was fired from. You need to take these things into account to get an idea of how close the missile could be.

Good post!

But be careful so you don't lose too much speed yourself or it will be for nothing :)

The last chance dodging is a solution which should be avoided, but yes, to drag a missile out by snaking is excellent....it has in rear-track to overcorrect and bleeds more energy then you.

Surely you cant avoid to get shot at, but what you dont wanna provoke is a terminal stage dodge. You wanna fight the missile, before it "fights" you (saying)

Closure/aspect, intercept angle (corrections) and drag (missile) are in strong important relations. KNOW YOUR NUMBERS ;)

You "play" with those variables or with the missiles so to speak, but not only if you get shot at ..NO! ...even BEFORE it is shot at you.

Its a strategic tactical counterplay - BFM - .....unlikely, that moment of surprise is always on your side and your first shot will hit....but one should.....so allow me one of my sayings here:

Only ONE missile is needed to kill...but the other ones can be used to set up THAT shot, therefore do it smart.

Never forget your escape window, dont screw up your "entry", dictate what will happen and be aware of if it, if it does...trap your bandit in the attempt to kill you rather then getting trapped in the attempt to kill him!

The kill is just and only a consequence.

Only ONE missile is needed to kill...but the others can be used to set up THAT shot, therefore do it smart.

Never forget your escape window, dont screw up your "entry", dictate what will happen and be aware of if it, if it does...trap your bandit in the attempt to kill you rather then getting trapped in the attempt to kill him!

 

The kill is just and only a consequence.

A nice philosophical summation A.S. Unfortunately it is a bit lacking in detail for us nOObs who require a much more prescriptive approach. e.g.

STEP ONE Wait until bandit launches

STEP TWO .....

p.s. The Greek plates ... Aussie Big Boots .... was a bit of inter-cultural teasing i.e. a joke or two.

Here's another!

Q Why do all the trees on the East coast of Australia lean out to sea?

A Because New Zealand sucks!!

Q What is geographically wrong with Australia?

A It is above sea level!

there is no 100% recipe which you can follow like step 1, 2 and so on ....know your tools....be confident in the circumstances and variables (situation)....and use them with brain. dont think with your weapon .

oh, Australia is a awesome place, just a bit to much of australians there (another one) ;)

Step One: Acquire target. You better have him on radar or Eyeball Mk-1 or something, or you're hosed.

Ideally, you have detected him beyond 40nm and are already tracking him.

Step Two: Set up your attack.

You don't necessarily want to go head-on, but if you are, be at the right speed and altitude, meaning: at corner speed and higher than he is.

Step Three: ECM or no ECM, launch at a reasonable range for your altitude. 20nm is a reasonable range when you're hanging around higher than 20k.

Step Four: Don't panic if there's missiles coming at you. Smoothly turn away from your target, and keep him on the edge of the radar until your timer runs out - go into a dive while at it to get below his altitude.

Step Five: Your missile is autonomous. Notch! :D Or, if you have managed to otherwise trash his missile, re-attack.

Note that these are just the basics, and there's a lot of stuff inbetween etc.

A nice philosophical summation A.S. Unfortunately it is a bit lacking in detail for us nOObs who require a much more prescriptive approach. e.g.

 

STEP ONE Wait until bandit launches

 

STEP TWO .....

A nice philosophical summation A.S. Unfortunately it is a bit lacking in detail for us nOObs who require a much more prescriptive approach. e.g.

 

STEP ONE Wait until bandit launches

 

STEP TWO .....

 

p.s. The Greek plates ... Aussie Big Boots .... was a bit of inter-cultural teasing i.e. a joke or two.

 

Here's another!

 

Q Why do all the trees on the East coast of Australia lean out to sea?

 

A Because New Zealand sucks!!

 

Q What is geographically wrong with Australia?

 

A It is above sea level!

Ahaha, for a moment when you pulled out that NZ joke, I thought you were on our side, but clearly not! Lol.

AS, your joke, unfortunately is true, there are too many Australians here.... :)

I suggest reading

"How to live & die in the virtual sky" by Dan "Crash" Crenshaw

1. Detection

2. Sorting

3. Targeting

4. Intercept

5. Engage

6. Separate etc etc

57 short pages...but good to read and understand.

Good presentation of fundamentals.

Maybe this is your way, but i dont think, that this is a civilised way here in GERMANY !!

 

But believe me, im already amused about your emotional response..or should i say...your "feeling offended and replying rude" back reason -without reasons- in that post above.

 

Virtual overdosis of testosterone?

AS, I was just joking mate.

You said that your girlfreind was throwing plates at you, hence I had to ask if you were Greek..Given that Greeks are known for plate smashing.

And me saying over here we just kick each other with boots was just a joke too..

ah ok, a world full of misunderstandings....:D

The snaking move is good if you are running away from a missile. You have to really watch your speed and figure out about how far the missile was fired from. You need to take these things into account to get an idea of how close the missile could be.

Nice explanation but very risky one. I wouldn't snake a radar missile fired from an airborne platform because it's not the first (initial) missile fired upon you that's the problem but every other that might follow.

And here's why: you snake the missile causing it to lose energy due to constant lead it has to pull (make sure your ECM is off here) but you also lose your energy by this maneuver and the distance to a platform that fired the missile upon you definitely reduces. He'll probably fly full AB in your general direction and you with snaking maneuvers would probably dance left to right within his HUD frame. This means that the bandit can swiftly move into WVR on you and even shoot some IRs up your tailpipe that you have no idea of.

However snaking a long range SAM is very efficient!

Pauldy, please allow me to recommend this article: http://www.simhq.com/_air/PDF/air_097print.pdf

The more you learn to relax both on the stick and in the fight, whether BVR or up close and personal, the better. You'll learn how to supervise your energy and the situation much better. Obviously, there's a lot of buttons, sounds and things to keep up with.

But remember, slow is smooth and smooth is fast!

A general tip is to group everything you need to operate your radar on the throttle, providing you have a hotas setup like the X52, and then program everything for the actual flying on the stick. So the general idea is systems left, flying bits right. This helps separating functions thus easing memorizing the buttons. It really helps not having to remove your hands and eyes from the important things. In a high threat environment, a 102 keyboard is not part of your essential fighting kit.

I really like that line "But remember, slow is smooth and smooth is fast" ...sounds hor## :D

Snaking Aim-54 case-study vid:

www.as-private.com/DiffStuff/snake-aim54.wmv

of course "snaking" is no all-weather-weapon ...but in certain cases it makes sense.

Just a question\comment on the snaking method.

It is an attractive option because you keep pulling the centre of your view instead of leaving him out on the gimbal limits where he may drop off and break your lock.

It also lines you up for a direct shot as he sweeps across your HUD

I am instinctively wary of this method because the missle will also follow a snaking path. Anyone who studies sine waves will know that there are portions of the missile's path where it is not maneuvering and is heading straight for you i.e. not bleeding energy.

Turn right\left 40deg and maintain constant angle against the missile will cause the missile to continously bleed energy.

Q Which method will leave the missile with the least amount of energy at the convergence point?

p.s. The year is 2010 and my work colleague has just put a "Spice Girls" album on in the warehouse. Do I have grounds for a complaint?