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[NEED TRACK REPLAY]Propwash (airflow caused by the prop) Does not effect the


hazzer

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As the title states. The airflow created by the propellor does not have any effect on the airflow over the rear control surfaces (rudder and elevator).

 

This can be seen by unlocking the tailwheel (with the tailwheel in the middle).

Increasing power and having full deflection, either left or right on the rudder.

You will see the aircraft tracks straight, only when airspeed increases do the control inputs have an effect.

This is incorrect as that prop produces a lot of airflow that would assist moving on the ground.

 

As far as I can tell this isn't present on any of the prop aircraft. Which is disappointing.

 

Please fix this.

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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Again, this is also untrue to a certain degree. At taxi speeds the air flow over control surfaces is not great enough to affect directional control of the aircraft. I don't recall ever seeing a recip powered aircraft on a soft field able to move around while at prop rpm less than run-up levels without the need of differential braking or nose-wheel steering.

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As the title states. The airflow created by the propellor does not have any effect on the airflow over the rear control surfaces (rudder and elevator).

 

This can be seen by unlocking the tailwheel (with the tailwheel in the middle).

Increasing power and having full deflection, either left or right on the rudder.

You will see the aircraft tracks straight, only when airspeed increases do the control inputs have an effect.

This is incorrect as that prop produces a lot of airflow that would assist moving on the ground.

 

As far as I can tell this isn't present on any of the prop aircraft. Which is disappointing.

 

Please fix this.

 

It is represented, and modeled. You just need rpm high enough to effect be visible.

Btw i can steer P-47 with rudder while taxing, like every other warbird in dcs. But this are only gentle adjustments if you wan to turn hard you need decent RPM for this, then you can turn.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Prop wash is modeled for every prop plane developed by ED i am sure of it.

Only thing which DCS lacks is prop wash affecting other planes.

Pls dont confuse this with wake turbulence.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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The only time you see any effect from the rudder is when you have some airspeed. Not when you have a high power setting and are at a stand still.

 

With a high power setting and the tailwheel unlocked, the airflow created by the propellor will be enough to turn the aircraft, this does not happen. I'm not talking about using differential breaking or about prop wash onto other aircraft, but how the prop was effects the rudder of its own aircraft.

If someone can demonstrate that it does I'll be happily proven wrong, but at this moment in time I'm away from my pc so I cant show you

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The only time you see any effect from the rudder is when you have some airspeed. Not when you have a high power setting and are at a stand still.

 

With a high power setting and the tailwheel unlocked, the airflow created by the propellor will be enough to turn the aircraft, this does not happen. I'm not talking about using differential breaking or about prop wash onto other aircraft, but how the prop was effects the rudder of its own aircraft.

If someone can demonstrate that it does I'll be happily proven wrong, but at this moment in time I'm away from my pc so I cant show you

 

I think we are going need some more detail on what your saying/trying to do. How fast your moving, how much power. The specifics of the scenario.

 

Not in a P-47, but in a similar WW2 aircraft T-6. I have to use differential brakes for two reasons related to taxiing, one slow speed turns and two setting the tail wheel. When starting from a stop and the tail wheel isn't aligned (say after pushback), you must use the brakes to align it in the direction you want to go. This can take several applications of tapping the brakes while slightly moving forward to get it spun around in the correct direction. You will not be able to overcome this with power alone.

 

I have no experience in any tail wheel aircraft where I can turn the aircraft at slow speeds without differential braking, but this could be due to the mechanisms used on the aircraft I've flown. It will turn without differential braking once the tail wheel becomes free/point in the direction you want to go but to get the tail wheel there it needs help.

 

I don't see the tail having enough effectiveness without a good amount of speed to turn around even with the tail wheel unlocked. For aircraft as heavy as a P-47 at least. For a cub (which I haven't flown) I imagine it can.

 

I'd be happy to be told and proven otherwise by a P-47 pilot or other documentation/example, but what you asking goes against the normal expectations of what I've experienced with other relatively heavy taildraggers IRL. But also this could be due to the assumptions I'm making on the scenario based on the lack of specifics from your original post.


Edited by ShadowFrost
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Airflow over the tail is definitely under modeled across the board in all DCS tail draggers that I own.

 

The key test is the inability to stop a minor tail swing with a sharp blast of power and full rudder opposite the swing. This a technique that works in every tail dragger I have flown from the Citabria to fully loaded Beech 18's. It was a bit different in the DC-3 and B-17 as they don't have a tail in the direct airflow

 

Some things I used to do in the real world flying a fairly wide variety of tail draggers just don't work in DCS and it is because of a lack of simulated airflow.

 

I consider it a minor issue as it only really affects ground handling although you do notice the lack of airflow at the top of a vertical line.

 

 

 

 

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Is it clear though how much of the spiraling slipstream from the prop will just strike the vertical stabilizer from the side causing a yaw moment vs flow over across both sides to make the rudder controllable?

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Also as an additional side note to the above, IIRC aircraft in DCS (example being the P-51) need more power than what is necessary IRL to get rolling. And other aircraft have had various friction issues throughout the years.

 

Could it be less a prop wash problem and more a tire/friction related issue?

Because I imagine the propwash effectiveness could be decently easily correlated with CFD.

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Also as an additional side note to the above, IIRC aircraft in DCS (example being the P-51) need more power than what is necessary IRL to get rolling. And other aircraft have had various friction issues throughout the years.

 

Could it be less a prop wash problem and more a tire/friction related issue?

Because I imagine the propwash effectiveness could be decently easily correlated with CFD.

 

no, this is matter of the friction.And this was improved in last patch because planes roll much easier now.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Airflow over the tail is definitely under modeled across the board in all DCS tail draggers that I own.

 

The key test is the inability to stop a minor tail swing with a sharp blast of power and full rudder opposite the swing. This a technique that works in every tail dragger I have flown from the Citabria to fully loaded Beech 18's. It was a bit different in the DC-3 and B-17 as they don't have a tail in the direct airflow

 

Some things I used to do in the real world flying a fairly wide variety of tail draggers just don't work in DCS and it is because of a lack of simulated airflow.

 

I consider it a minor issue as it only really affects ground handling although you do notice the lack of airflow at the top of a vertical line.

 

It will also effect the low speed handling qualities of all the aircraft, coming in under the drag curve with high power for example.

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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I consider it a minor issue as it only really affects ground handling although you do notice the lack of airflow at the top of a vertical line.

 

I disagree here, spiral air flow through wings and stabilizer has great impact how plane fly.

 

another thing if in DCS prop wash effect would be increased, bf 109 would not have problems in initial roll like it has irl. Spitfire would become crazy in take off. It is more of ground physics issue then FM.

There is recording from spitfires's cockpit, where pneumatic brakes are hearable through whole taxi part.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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I disagree here, spiral air flow through wings and stabilizer has great impact how plane fly.

 

another thing if in DCS prop wash effect would be increased, bf 109 would not have problems in initial roll like it has irl. Spitfire would become crazy in take off. It is more of ground physics issue then FM.

There is recording from spitfires's cockpit, where pneumatic brakes are hearable through whole taxi part.

 

It is minor in that there are other issues that are not quite up to par that have a greater impact throughout all flight regimes AND should be corrected simultaneously or before airflow from the propeller. Increasing "propwash" alone would throw things out of whack unless the other issues are corrected first or at the same time.

 

It is already been established that the other issues are not going to be addressed so I do not think this should be addressed either.

 

We have a reasonable approximation and must take a larger view. The propeller slipstream is part of a larger whole that must be considered before changing a single piece.

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
It is minor in that there are other issues that are not quite up to par that have a greater impact throughout all flight regimes AND should be corrected simultaneously or before airflow from the propeller. Increasing "propwash" alone would throw things out of whack unless the other issues are corrected first or at the same time.

 

It is already been established that the other issues are not going to be addressed so I do not think this should be addressed either.

 

We have a reasonable approximation and must take a larger view. The propeller slipstream is part of a larger whole that must be considered before changing a single piece.

 

I agree with you.

I would say this is just part of a much larger issue that needs to be worked on. However i'm not even sure ED have acknowledged that?

RTX 2080ti, I7 9700k, 32gb ram, SSD, Samsung Odyssey VR, MSFFB2, T-50 Throttle, Thrustmaster Rudder Pedals

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