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Another trim/APs regarding question


Wexler

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Hello SimPilots,

 

So i finally made it to Ka-50 after 1,5 year in DCS. Probably as everyone new to this module, I wonder with Trim and APs. Sorry for writing it, I am not used to watch Youtube videos, i like it in text form.

 

Firstly, I would like to say that I know how to use Trim in Huey and Trim + dampeners in Mi-8.

 

Lets consider my Ka-50 always have the Bank/Pitch/heading AP on as it should be.

I understand the modes using PVI-800 or having no nav and using route

 

What confuses me and I would like to please you for short answer is:

 

1. When I have no PVI-800 navigation on, route mode off, what my APs actually do (Damping only / stabilizing ? how) in terms of heading/bank/pitch.

 

2. When i push the FLT-DIR (by manual only damping is used, no stabilization) - How it differs from the 1. mode ? in terms of heading/bank/pitch.

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3. Trim - when in no PVI-800 nav and having route, there is said to hold the trim to change track and release it when on desired path. Does this means trim is always to be holded when manipulated? In huey and mi-8 when i level, i just click the trimmer and its alright. For instance, in no navigation and no route mode. How to operate the trim? Just level and push the trimmer once?

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.


Edited by Wexler

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1: the AP is trying to maintain the attitude that the aircraft was in when you last released the trimmer button, subject to the channels you have selected. If you only have AP heading selected and you release the trimmer in a bank, it'll only try to keep the nose pointed in the same (compass) direction. It won't try to maintain the bank or pitch.

 

2: Flight director is damping only. If you press the trimmer button, when you release it you will get HUD indications telling you what attitude the AP would be trying to achieve if you had it engaged.

 

3: There are different schools of thought on this. I find it easier to just hold down the trim every time I move the cyclic, but others prefer to repeatedly tap the trim button during manoeuvres, which apparently is what the real pilots do.

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Thanks.

 

When u hold the trimmer, the AP-stabilize is always suspended right? This means that when u are not in FLT-DIR you should always work with the trimmer by holding it ?

 

Another question, what setting of these APs is actually supposed to be on engamements

1) While in fly

2) Hovering

 

Thank in advance

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1: the AP is trying to maintain the attitude that the aircraft was in when you last released the trimmer button, subject to the channels you have selected.

 

What is the difference between having the Route mode activated or deactivated, when there is no PVI-800 navigation use. ?

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Yes, being in FD is the same as if you are holding the trimmer while not in FD. And yes, in my opinion you should keep the trimmer pressed while manoeuvring otherwise the AP will be working against you and reducing your control authority.

 

As for your other question, you pick for the situation I guess. I don't have much combat experience. I do know that most people seem to keep the bank, pitch and heading channels on most of the time and not use altitude so much.

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electricaltill: Thank you for your advices.

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Just remember that the AP channels only have 20% authority of the trimmed position. So with Heading on and bank off, in a turn the AP will exert 20% opposite rudder to try to steer back on course.

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Thanks for confirmation of what I thought. Especially the Rudder exertion.

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To ponder...

 

 

I've watched the vids where the pilot seems to continuously tap the trim...

 

 

I propose that the pilot is indeed continuously releasing the trim button for short lengths of time ;), but mostly holding it in during transient flight.

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They have to continuously tap the trim in real life because pressing it down will release all forces on the cyclic and make it go slack. Turning Flight Director on/off vs. holding the trim and releasing does the same thing except for one point: Flight Director does not release the force on the cyclic.

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Althoug in Mi-8, yesterday, I adapted the behaviour to hold the trim and using click only for very small corrections. It goes perfect. I binded it to switch instead button, as holding button is quite uncomfortable. My flight fluency is moderately better than before.

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They have to continuously tap the trim in real life because pressing it down will release all forces on the cyclic and make it go slack. Turning Flight Director on/off vs. holding the trim and releasing does the same thing except for one point: Flight Director does not release the force on the cyclic.

 

I understand that quite good now. Although Warthog Stick have center position, so unless the stick can hold its position out of center, we can´t do it like in real-life right? This means we are always "Trimmed" in center position with our stick.

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I have the Warthog as well. I have always held the trim in until I get it pointed where I want it. Route mode is your auto pilot running off your PVI so if no WP is selected or PVI is off the computer doesn't do anything. No need to switch it on if the PVI isn't running.

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I usually toggle Flight Director (can't remember if it's on or off lol), make my adjustments, click the trimmer to 'lock it in', then toggle FD again. The FD will remember your stick position when you clicked the trimmer and orient that way. The whole system didn't make sense to me until I realized that the trimmer is basically an autopilot in itself.

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When I used a force feedback joystick, which works in DCS just like the real helicopter (the trim moves the stick's centering position), I also repeatedly tapped the trimmer instead of holding it.

Because holding the trimmer would make the stick 'go limp', having no centering force on it at all.

 

Now that I use a standard spring-centered stick (T16k), I hold the trimmer while maneuvering, as the stick's center position doesn't move and there's always a centering force in place.

 

 

Another question, what setting of these APs is actually supposed to be on engamements

1) While in fly

2) Hovering

During engagement you can have AP on in any modes, but you have to keep in mind what the AP will be trying to do in case you need to override it. Which you can do quickly by holding the trimmer button while you move.

 

The heading autopilot is specially useful in hovering engagements when you use it along with the K-401's Turn to Target mode (which is only in effect when the HDG AP is also on). In this mode the AP will yaw the helo to point the nose at where the Shkval marker is (so you can focus on working on other instruments/weapons instead of flying the helo).

 

But beware if you turn the Shkval off, reset it or it goes out of bounds, you may need to turn the K-401 setting (and/or HDG AP) off as well.

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Trim button engages autopilot when you release it, not when you tap it. What does autopilot do? Autopilot simply tries to keep the attitude you have when you release the button (assuming you have pitch, bank and jaw channels on, but you should always have them on because they are also stabilizers) with a 20% authority. When you press the button you disable the autopilot. Real pilots repeatedly tap for the reason already explained: pressing the button means no tension feedback on the cyclic IRL, so keeping it pressed makes the helicopter unflyable. If you have a ffb stick you can choose to do as real pilots do or to keep the button pressed. But if you use a springed stick, you cannot repeatedly tap (you have a centered spring): you have to keep the button pressed, stabilize on the new attitude keeping it pressed (otherwise the autopilot tries to use its 20% authority to bring you on the attitude you were when you released the button, and that's not where you want to go), then release it to allow the autopilot to keep your new attitude once you are stable on it (consider autopilot do its work with only 20% authority, so if you have not a stable attitude it can't help you much). Flight director disables autopilot just keeping the stabilizing channels. So FD on is like always having the button pressed, i.e. the trim is just a trim and not also an autopilot.


Edited by nessuno0505
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  • 2 weeks later...
Althoug in Mi-8, yesterday, I adapted the behaviour to hold the trim and using click only for very small corrections. It goes perfect. I binded it to switch instead button, as holding button is quite uncomfortable. My flight fluency is moderately better than before.

 

 

 

 

I guess if that works for you, then it works, but it shouldn't be necessary. I use central position trimmer mode, and trim it with a click, just like I would with a UH-1. You don't have to hold the trim down to temporarily disable the autopilot on the Mi-8 because use of the trim isn't "programming" the autopilot in the same way as it is with Ka-50. The Flight Engineers knobs are what accomplishes that.

 

 

For about a month now, following the practices of a more experienced pilot, I started flying the Ka-50 with Flight Director ON. For me, this makes the Ka-50 fly more like the Mi-8, specifically in that I don't have to hold the trimmer down while manuevering. The only catch is that when I want to autohover, I click FD mode Off right before hitting the Autohover button, since if the FD is On, you wouldn't be able to Autoturn to target or stuff like that. And then of course, I turn FD back on again when I want to move on. As with anything, Your Mileage May Vary.


Edited by Ornithopter
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