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some help for an A-10 rookie?


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Okay, well, your guess is wrong.

 

First you're assuming that NO unit will be prepared to defend itself at ANY time if ther eis an aircraft performing a low-altitude aproach. This is simply not correct.

 

Secondly, even if it took 20 seconds to fire that Igla, how far away do you think you could get? Those things actually have good reach - and you'll be spotted in good time - ADA troops have lookouts and procedures for specifically this reason. You might get intercepted before you even reach your target.

 

How do you know where the target is if you're staying out of their sight, anyway?

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Well, fact is that A-10 operational doctrine in the 1980s was to stay below 300ft at any time while in the target area ( excluded the actual pop-up ). And most CAS sorties would have been pre briefed or controlled by FAC, so target location is known.

Of course the threat of SHORAD during a confrontation with the USSR would have been significant and losses of A-10 would have been very high, still staying low and using the surprise effect was safest way to do the job in that high threat evoirement.

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Guest IguanaKing

Yup...that was its operational doctrine, and still is. Even though this profile yielded the second highest loss rate among coalition aircraft in ODS, it is still used due to the A-10s primary mission, CAS. Granted, it is much safer for the aircraft itself to stay at higher altitudes when engaging the enemy, but the ever present possibility of fratricide usually keeps them at low altitude.

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Actually, they were used in high altitude flight profiles over Kosovo. The situation was somewhat different - and yes, CAS is all about being down in the dirt. And like IK said: High loss rates. Now imagine if the enemy was equipped with better trained troops and more modern hardware.

 

Still wanna say that SHORAD should be ignored? Why do you think the A-10 is armored?

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Guest IguanaKing

It depends on the tactical situation. In Kosovo, A-10s were far less likely to encounter friendly ground forces, so they could generally stay high. A-10s were still used at low altitude in OIF, with several of them sustaining heavy battle damage but returning to friendly bases. The problem of fratricide still reared its ugly head though. USMC Amtracks were strafed by A-10s due, partly, to the USMC FAC being cut-off, communications-wise from an element of his assault force which had pressed ahead of everyone else and ended up on the North side of Nassiriyah. Apparently, power transmission lines over the city rendered the Marines' coms gear almost completely useless and nobody knew where anybody else actually was.

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Still wanna say that SHORAD should be ignored? Why do you think the A-10 is armored?

 

Of course not, I think we missunderstood us. We basicaly mean the same thing.

Of course it is better to stay out of range of SHORAD, but there were times when this wasn't possible ( 1980s ). So when you have to enter this dangerous zone ( because it is the safest one you have ), you make best use of the surprise effect.

 

SHORAD would have cost the A-10 huge losses in a east-west confrontation. Still the Hog pilots could assume that they had quite a good chance to survive a CAS mission, otherwise there would have been no more A-10 left after 2 hours of fighting. And the primary tactic to survive such attacks would have been, ingress at low altitude, make a pop-up attack and employ a Mav or the gun, use the surprise effect to carry out the attack unharmed and then immediatly dive down into cover again. Whould the covering wingman call out a threat warning during the attack run, the shooter would have imediatly aborted and brake away.

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Yep, but keep in mind that the order in the 1980's, if the Soviets were to roll over the border, was 'DIP' (Die In Place).

 

The reason why the A-10 was a relatively cheap aircraft was because high losses were expected. And given the 'DIP' order (As described by someone who was stationed on a German base), I don't really think the A-10's were expected to survive. Deliver their weapons somewhat successfuly maybe, but I don't think they were really expected to make it back all that easy.

 

In addition, because of the terrain and combat density, pop-up attacks could have easily been a surprise for the A-10, too ... remember, in that case they were quite expected.

 

Different scenario I think than OIF/Kosovo.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Guest IguanaKing

True, but OIF and Kosovo can't really be lumped together either, since they both presented different tactical problems. ;)

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I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish ... in the cold war, it was to slow down the tank advance and perform CAS - I know that the two sound the same, but in this case the tank advance was all a game of attrition and I think the goal was to bust up as much soviet armor as quickly as possible.

 

In Kosovo it was to find and attack essentially targets of opportunity while not being attacked (so they'd stay high,out of the range of SHORAD)

 

In OIF it was pure good old CAS, with interdiction after I think.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Guest IguanaKing

CAS is still being used in Iraq, in particularly clever, and nasty ways. Mobile assets of the insurgency, especially at night, are often pursued by coalition and Iraqi forces and herded into areas specifically designated as A-10 kill boxes. The kill boxes being much smaller in this case than the usual meaning of the term. ;) It is often an empty alley or dead-end street. The enemy vehicle finds itself trapped, and the A-10 comes in to kill them with the Avenger. My brother told me that the sound of A-10s and their Avengers was a pretty common sound in the middle of the night over there.

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I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish ... in the cold war, it was to slow down the tank advance and perform CAS - I know that the two sound the same, but in this case the tank advance was all a game of attrition and I think the goal was to bust up as much soviet armor as quickly as possible.

 

True, the plan for NATO ground forces was to retreat continously while slowing down the soviet advance until reinforcements from the USA would arrive. The front was divided into sectors. The A-10 would have provided direct CAS for the retreating NATO troops. Once all NATO troops would have left a certain sector, it would be designated a kill zone where A-10 would ID any ground unit as hostile. In these zones the A-10 would have flyed pre planed strikes against troop concentrations to slow down the soviet advance. As far as I know no Search and Destroy missions against targets of opportunity would have been flown, as these mission profiles would have been in conflict with the low flying doctrin.

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In lockon hunting at low altitude is not reccomended unless you know the location of the targets. In which case if its necessary to fly low due to enemy CAP then the popup would allow you to roll in, acquire the targets and hit it then dive back down for cover. The radar modelling in v1.11 is brilliant for this. But not often is the targets location given in mission briefings. Expert level ai tungaskas and shilkas have still got a better chance of nailing you if you do a popup too close, particularly if they have a dog ear radar or other search radar with them. Using the gun against shilkas is only reccomended if you're in a shallow dive at 2000ft. Modern A/G tactics now days involve high altitude standoff tactics in most cases unless you're engaging an enemy who has no air defences.

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ZSUs I don't think are a problem ... the RWR gives them away, allowing you to turn away, locate them and kill them with a Mav. Similarly with the SA-8 ... although the additional range is more of a problem ... you just have to keep dummying until they are out of missiles. Igla/SA-9/13s are abit more of a problem ... no warning, you have too see the launch and turn away real fast, especially online where you have no wingman calling a warning.

 

In RL, I think the latest generations of Soviet AA systems have made it too dangerous downlow ... and too dangerous up high without a massive SEAD effort to clear them all out. Bear in mind, no one has yet gone up against S-300s, Tunguska, SA-15s etc in a live integrated environment ... this is where LO timescale is a little odd ...

 

Also, Western countries are now just too averse to casualties or pilots being paraded through the streets ...

 

CAS against a live AD environment with the latest Sov systems would get very bloody, very quickly ...

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Guest IguanaKing

IRL, ZSUs can still be a HUGE problem for a low-flying aircraft. That weapons system can also be optically directed, which gives no warning to the aircraft it is to be used against. ;)

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