New gun AG pipper behavior.

Now for AG gun pipper to work properly, there must be a target lock in DMT or via TPOD. Without AG tgt lock AG gun pipper is fixed.

Now for AG gun pipper to work properly, there must be a target lock in DMT or via TPOD. Without AG tgt lock AG gun pipper is fixed.

Sounds like you either lost or had not aligned INS, maybe?

No, it looks like the A2A pipper. The unwinding tape indicating when you are within firing range is not showing.

Interesting. This pleases me if true.

Whaaa...? Why? It means it's broken; badly.

 

Read the NATOPS. They have specific diagrams on how AG targeting for gun and rockets work.

So what exactly is the problem? I just quickly checked both Gun and Rocket pipper in the quick mission. Both work as they should! If you get an A/A pipper you are in air-to-air mode . In A/G mode the pipper, ranging cues and even the GPS/Terrain matrix corrected "HotGun" cross work like a charm... I can use it with INS/GPS only or in conjunction with the DMT/ARBS, all fine.

 

Again, my guess is, that you mess up the INS alignment or have damaged systems (internal systems damage is modeled since a couple updates).

 

Please fly the quick start mission "Gun and rocket" and provide a screenshot and the steps you took until the symbology changed.

 

You should simply need to set

-Master Arm ON

-select GUN on the Left MPCD

For Rockets choose

-L10 etc. and notice the Gun pipper replaced by a cross ( + ) while the pipper now shows the rockets point of impact. (Unless you deselect the GUN again)

Whaaa...? Why? It means it's broken; badly.

 

Read the NATOPS. They have specific diagrams on how AG targeting for gun and rockets work.

 

When they have accurate range data. Where is that data coming from if not from the ARBS?

When they have accurate range data. Where is that data coming from if not from the ARBS?

From the GPS and Terrain Matrix. Similar to the A-10Cs DTS. It's in that ominous manual, as well.
Edited August 18, 2019 by shagrat

The data is coming from CCIP. If you required a programmed target-point, then your sight would work ONLY on that target point. Think about how that would work... or more closely, not work at all.

The data is coming from CCIP. If you required a programmed target-point, then your sight would work ONLY on that target point. Think about how that would work... or more closely, not work at all.

No, the Data for the Gun reticle in CCIP is calculated from INS/GPS position and vector and the Terrain Matrix (Digital Map) as long as all systems are ok.

No, the Data for the Gun reticle in CCIP is calculated from INS/GPS position and vector and the Terrain Matrix (Digital Map) as long as all systems are ok.

 

 

If you don't have any target height data, obtained by waypoint, or by placing an INS diamond on the map by other means, (GCIP, mark,TOO etc), you still have Radar alt, which will give a solution except in steepest terrain.

All of these methods are working OK for me.

 

 

..

If you don't have any target height data, obtained by waypoint, or by placing an INS diamond on the map by other means, (GCIP, mark,TOO etc), you still have Radar alt, which will give a solution except in steepest terrain.

All of these methods are working OK for me.

 

 

..

Yep, same here. I get GCIP if I do not designate via other means, RCIP when low enough.

Only thing I find a bit weird is the Min/Max range cues seem a bit low with 2000ft/3600ft. I get the Pull Up warning way(!) before even close to the target and will definitely fly straight over it when I try to fire I inside the range cues... or am I supposed to get that close?

When they have accurate range data. Where is that data coming from if not from the ARBS?

 

Altitude, HUD LOS and Target Elevation.

 

 

Note: In the picture above the AV-8B is using RCIP i.e. the Radar Alt to calculate the CCIP solution.

 

Although changing between Baro Alt and Radar Alt changes the HUD altimeter reading, it does not change the CCIP's reticle position, so it seems that CCIP errors due to target elevation are not modelled.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Ramsay

Altitude, HUD LOS and Target Elevation.

 

 

Note: In the picture above the AV-8B is using RCIP i.e. the Radar Alt to calculate the CCIP solution.

 

Although changing between Baro Alt and Radar Alt changes the HUD altimeter reading, it does not change the CCIP's reticle position, so it seems that CCIP errors due to changing target elevation is not modelled.

When you just go to GUN you get the Altitude from GPS/INS indicated by GCIP.

When you just go to GUN you get the Altitude from GPS/INS indicated by GCIP.

It depends on your CCIP mode, with the Radar Altimeter enabled (and below 5,000 ft), you'll get RCIP indicated in the HUD as in my picture.

 

Tested Open Beta 2.5.5.34644

Edited August 18, 2019 by Ramsay
Confirmation test in 2.5.5.34644

It depends on your CCIP mode, with the Radar Altimeter enabled (and below 5,000 ft), you'll get RCIP indicated in the HUD as in my picture.

 

Tested Open Beta 2.5.5.34644

Yep, depends on dive angle, speed etc. it starts with the GPS/Terrain Matrix and switches to RCIP under 5k ft.

The point is, a designation is not required.

The point is, a designation is not required.

 

AFAIK the currently selected waypoint elevation should be used as the target elevation but the waypoint it's self doesn't need to be designated.

 

2.2.1.3 GPS Altitude.

 

When using GPS altitude in CCIP mode, the waypoint/waypoint offset elevation or the last known target elevation is subtracted from GPS altitude to derive the height above target.

 

2.10.1.11 Factors Affecting Accuracy

 

a. Ranging errors.

 

Factors affecting the accuracy of barometric, radar altimeter, or radar AGR ranging are as follows:

 

1. Barometric Ranging

 

...

 

(e) Accurate target elevation entry into waypoint data.

 

Target designation using CCIP (at weapon release) or a manual TOO will update Lat and Long but I'm not sure what it uses as an elevation source or if it inherits the target altitude from the waypoint.

 

Edit: Checking NATOPS, TOO turns on the Radar Alt to measure target elevation,

 

• TOO elevation = Baro / GPS Altitude - Radar Altitude

 

... not sure what it does above 5,000 ft AGL.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Ramsay
TOO uses radar altitude

It depends on your CCIP mode, with the Radar Altimeter enabled (and below 5,000 ft), you'll get RCIP indicated in the HUD as in my picture.

 

Tested Open Beta 2.5.5.34644

 

 

 

You don't need the RA switched on. You will still get the RCIP indicator displayed, but the Alt display remains the same.

 

 

I'm also using Target alt 0 (no waypoint). The radar is giving the solution.

 

Above that the GPS is giving the solution.

 

 

The results are the same, except for RA in the hills, where a waypoint Target alt is required..

 

TOO is a low level designator, The radar alt is turned on momentarily to put the diamond on the ground.

 

 

..

Edited August 18, 2019 by Holbeach

AFAIK the currently selected waypoint elevation should be used as the target elevation but the waypoint it's self doesn't need to be designated.

 

 

 

 

 

Target designation using CCIP (at weapon release) or a manual TOO will update Lat and Long but I'm not sure what it uses as an elevation source or if it inherits the target altitude from the waypoint.

 

Edit: Checking NATOPS, TOO turns on the Radar Alt to measure target elevation,

 

• TOO elevation = Baro / GPS Altitude - Radar Altitude

 

... not sure what it does above 5,000 ft AGL.

When using the GUN pipper in CCIP (continuously computed impact point) the default mode is GCIP (GPS elevation) using MC to compute the impact point continuously... without any designation of a target or a waypoint. When you get below 5k ft, the MC switches to RCIP (Radar altimeter), if you fly inside paramerers. Still there is nothing designated on the ground and you get the computed impact point. We do not (yet) have the GPS errors (horizontal and vertical) displayed on the SMS page, but I doubt these errors are modeled in detail.

So unless you fly against a mountain side or targets on a drastically different elevation the CCIP reticule for the gun should be quite accurate.

Edited August 18, 2019 by shagrat

From the GPS and Terrain Matrix. Similar to the A-10Cs DTS. It's in that ominous manual, as well.

 

 

Except there is no refrence to in in that ominous manual. But there is a whole detailed chapter on how the ARBS works. Send me a page number if im wrong but ive spent a good ammount of time looking for this without finding it.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Harlikwin

Except there is no refrence to in in that ominous manual. But there is a whole detailed chapter on how the ARBS works. Send me a page number if im wrong but spent a good ammount of time looking for this.

Section 1.12 .17 "GPS usage considerations"... and basically the whole chapter about map coordinate integration into the MC via the MPS/DSU. Depending on the original map accuracy, of course, which serves as the basis for coordinate calculation.

Altitude, HUD LOS and Target Elevation.

 

Although changing between Baro Alt and Radar Alt changes the HUD altimeter reading, it does not change the CCIP's reticle position, so it seems that CCIP errors due to target elevation are not modelled.

 

It was more of a rhetorical question. And yes, either ARBS, or radar/baro/gps alt is how i know it to work. And no errors of target alt modled as far as i know. Either with this method or the ARBS. (I think someone tested the Arbs more recently and it might model error now, but i cant recall)

Section 1.12 .17 "GPS usage considerations"... and basically the whole chapter about map coordinate integration into the MC via the MPS/DSU. Depending on the original map accuracy, of course, which serves as the basis for coordinate calculation.

 

Tacman or natops.

Tacman or natops.

Tacman

The concept of the "digital map" includes elevation data, so the paper map processed into a digital map, depending on datum, resolution, accuracy determines the final precision the MPS can achieve/upload.

You might want to look into Tacman 1.12.14. Mission Planning System, also.

Edited August 18, 2019 by shagrat