SD-10 Multiplayer Performance

Just a question regarding the JF-17.

I am not much of a CAP guy, but I have tried doing some AA combat with the JF-17 using the SD-10s and after I locked a target in TWS, it seems that the maximum range and the "INRNG" only happen to be at 14nm(~10,000-20,000ASL) I thought the missile had~a 43-63nm range, yet even if I fired 4 of them at a target, none hits... Is there something going on with the performance in multiplayer, am I the one doing something wrong, or every player I have shot at, is really good and can evade 4 Missiles on a 14nm range?

Shouldn't BVR start at the 20NM mark and beyond?

Get higher and faster, the missiles dlz or in range cue is roughly the same as your altitude in thousands of feet as long as you are going around mach 1, if you get faster you will get more range, if you are slower you will get less. You can shoot it beyond the in range cue as well, but the bandit will have an easier time defeating it if you do.

assuming no attitude changes, then it depends on your speed, the target's speed and the altitude

you'll get about 12-15nm of usable-ish range (straight-ish shot - that's nm the missile will actually fly, not relative distances) from the sd10 at 10kft, 22-25 nm at 20k ft, 32-35nm at 30k ft (these are all at military or ab speeds) and get close to the range you're mentioning at 45k ft or so, this is with the missile flying straight obviously and no crazy winds etc

here's some easy formulas to remember:

mach * 10 = nm / min @ asl

mach * 11 = nm / min @ 35k ft

e.g.

something moving at mach 1 will need 1 min to travel 11nm (about-ish)

something moving at mach 2 will need 1 min to travel 22nm (about-ish)

something moving at mach 3 will need 1 min to travel 33nm (about-ish)

etc

re speed delta/closure

10 kts is about 0.16nm/min

100 kts is about 1.6nm/min

1000 kts is about 16nm/min (i.e. after 1 min you'll be 16nm closer)

if i lob an sd10 at someone 40nm away, who's at 30kft altitude and headed towards me @1000kts (get their speed from the radar or swap to tas and do closure - tas) and they maintain that course, after a little more than a minute they'll get an sd10 through the canopy, if the enemy airplane changes their attitude 45 degrees to the right (you can check their aspect on the radar), the moment i launch, the sd10 will never get anywhere near it etc

also, it doesn't make sense to wait for your target to get to the no escape zone if you're head to head / just starting the engagement, you should be trying to get them to go defensive as soon as possible and then close in from a favourable angle, while they're busy dodging missiles

you'll notice a little box with a number in it painted on the hud, over your target, the number inside that box (before you shoot) is the number of seconds a missile will need to get to your target, that number will change once you fire an sd10 and will start counting down to 0, if you lose the contact before it hits 0 or about that time, you're reducing the chances of your missile connecting (ideally obviously you never want to get to that situation, but the jf has some radar problems at the moment and doesn't make it easy on you), the reason for that is that the countdown you see is the countdown for the missile's own (independent) radar to turn on

there's going to be an arrow (><^V) on one side of the box

- arrow on the left means the target is within max range (you'll likely only get a hit if they're on a steady course towards you)

- an arrow on the top means the target is outside the no escape zone - if you launch now, they'll have to actively defend/avoid - if they don't they're almost certainly going down

- an arrow on the bottom of the designation box means that the target is within the no-escape zone, that means that your computer has calculated that the target is close enough that even if they're actively defending, your missile will have enough energy to perform at or near it's full potential (90% pk i think), this is the range, i think, based on your description, where you're firing your missiles (if you're firing at the shoot cue). Ideally you shouldn't be getting this close if your opponent is not already busy defending or out of fox 3's as you'll be fair game :)

- arrow on the right means that the target is at the minimum range / you'll be too close and won't be able to fire soon

the ranges mentioned in my previous post are pretty much on the 2nd range band - the missile will still be super-sonic-ish and whoever is looking at it's pointy end will have to be defending in order to avoid them

also stt > tws unless you need the situational awareness

Great explanations witness!

The only thing I'd add is if possible you want to shoot while you are supersonic, as this will give the missile more range, not just from the energy standpoint, but also its less draggy when fired this way so range is maybe 10% better or something like that per what I've read.

FWIW at medium altitudes, a very simple tactic is to basically fire 1 near max range, then crank and head back in with the second one at the high Pk range depending on what the target is doing the first one will almost always miss but the second has a decent chance of connecting. Of course the other guy is most likely doing the same thing to you. TWS vs STT is also a tactical consideration, they will get the STT launch warning and know you fired vs no idea for TWS (this can be used to force people defensive early though).

Also realize most good players are very good at notching missiles and going defensive, and that Chaff in DCS tends to be "overmodled" vs modern missiles if used right.

I'm pretty new to DCS, so not sure if this is how the game implements things etc - that being said you shouldn't be getting a warning in your RWR for an amraam or sd-10 launch, regardless of the presence of a track or not. I always thought the msl lch cue was from the MWS :confused:

The rwr is able to detect emr from radars and can give you a warning for changes in the tracking mode or a missile launch based on the changes in the signature of the radiation detected. There would be changes between TWS and DTT or STT (as the signature of the emitter changes and also the frequency of "beam hits" / energy etc) or if a sarh missile is lauched, as again there will be changes to the signature. However there wouldn't be any changes to the radar signature when launching a missile that gets its updates through a datalink like the amraam unless you have some equipment that can detect the datalink signal etc (there are advanced rwr's out there that use fuzzy logic and have a very large database of systems/frequency hopping/energy patterns etc, but i very much doubt our jeff has any of that)

I believe that the SD-10 has a a throttle-able rocket motor unlike any missile in DCS to date. But its going to take the new DCS missile API to support that kind of stuff. Once the rocket motor is throttle-able then expect to see closer to the true range of the SD-10, and you'll also notice a much higher NEZ then the maximum range would suggest.

I don’t believe it’s throttleable but it can separately fire its boost and sustain stage. So at long ranges it may only fire boost and wait to fire sustain until terminal. Once the missile API supports this it will be a beast!

So will the amraam right?

In as much as the SD-10 should between 120B and 120C. I think it’s L00pb8ck that said while AMRAAM has better glide, Sd-10 larger motor makes it fiercer in NEZ

Once everything is on the new API it will be a whole new game

So will the amraam right?

What is the obsession? LOL

All weapons should be accurate, and not simply magic-100%-kill-everything. There are plenty of GAMES for that kind of flying.

Also, no missile is very good, from public records.

The only reason MANPADs have high PK is because they're fired at relatively slow, non-maneuvering targets.

If the target knows you're shooting and tries reasonable escape maneuvers, PK drops drastically.

Tell that to fkn amraams since last patch. Feel impossible to dodge.