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Critique my list: PC build


CL30

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Thanks for your helpful insight, Headwarp!

 

You do make some good points about using a SATA drive instead of an NVMe. I'm not going to be doing lots of data transfers and stuff like that. Mainly, I'll load Windows and load some games. I think a slightly longer load time for the maps could be a good thing...will give me time to grab a beer from the 'fridge, lol.

 

As for the GPU, I considered that point about the Black card. You may have been the one make that statement to me quite a while back in another thread, that even though it's on the low rung, it's still a 2080 Ti. I think a little room for overclocking would be good. I don't want to paint myself into a corner so-to-speak and end up wishing I would've spent a couple hundred extra for a little better card. :)

 

Sound's like you've got a plan. :) Hope you love it when you get it all put together.

Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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Sound's like you've got a plan. :) Hope you love it when you get it all put together.

 

Thanks! It's gonna be awesome. I can't wait. I've spent entire 4-day trips sitting in hotels doing nothing but watching DCS videos! Drove myself absolutely crazy waiting for this build.

 

I'm in the most awkward position now where the days off ordering stuff are finally upon me, but I'm still so hesitant to pull the trigger on stuff I've been looking at for months! :surrender:

i5-9600k @ 5.0 GHz| Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | 32 GB Trident G.Skill RAM @ 3200 MHz | Thermaltake Floe Riing 360 AIO | Samsung EVO 860 500 GB SSD | Crucial MX500 500 GB M.2 | SanDisk 1TB SSD | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Ultra Gaming | EVGA G3 850W Gold PSU | Thermaltake View 71 TG Snow Edition | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFC Crosswind pedals | Oculus Rift-S

 

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Vulcan is when?

Please explain to me why you need 8 cores for a game that use less than 4 cores. Please tell me how Vulcan will fill up (100% utilisation) your 6 cores, make your 6 cores obsolete. Tell me how Vulcan will magically and dramatically increase the CPU work load to fully utilize (100% utilization) a 9900K. Tell me how much a 9900K is better than a 9600K on a single core performance.


Edited by Demon_

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I'm confused. Please explain to me how you need more than 750 continuous power wattage for a single video card? Please tell me what "safe" and "future proof" mean... Please educate me.


Edited by Demon_

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You want to aim for 50% power supply utilization during load as that's the point where the power supply is the most efficient. But that is just my take on it.

 

As for Vulkan, games based on it are usually 8 threaded. They hardly utilize the CPU for 100%, but they do not have to. The goal is to make the workload as much paralel as possible to not bottleneck the GPU when there are heavy CPU bound workloads.

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I'm confused. Please explain to me why you need more than 750 continuous power wattage for a single video card? Please tell me what "safe" and "future proof" mean... Please educate me.
First, it was said to him to step up the wattage of the PSU after he got recommended to take the 9900K instead of 9600K or 9700K, which draws more power especially if overclocked.

 

1) Because the system he is about to decide on could pull more than 600W and this is without a (aftermarket) overclocked graphics card. If he decides on overclocking it, which is the smart move considering the fact he is buying a EVGA card, he needs headroom since overclocked graphic cards pull a lot more power real fast the higher you clock.

2) PSUs degrade over time, you don't want to buy a PSU which initially is strong enough to drive your system but after 2 years it can't handle the power draw anymore.

3) PSUs have a certain efficiency. The wattage the manufacturer claims the PSU to have must not be as high as what the system actually needs after the electricity has passed through the PSU. I doubt all the manufacturers calculate their wattage the same way, I wouldn't trust them for their PSUs to actually give your system the power they claim the unit can deliver into the system instead of pulling it ouf of the wall.

4) If he decides to get an SLI setup later on he needs headroom.

5) If he decides to get the next generation graphics card (3xxx TI?) he should have headroom since he doesn't know if those cards will draw more or less power. Do you know how much they will draw right now? If he should decide on getting a AMD card for whatever reason he needs more headroom aswell as of now since AMD cards draw more power, see Radeon VII or Vega 64.


Edited by Der Hirte
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OP could save $270 with a 9600K, or at least $110 with a 9700k.

 

OP has shown interest in games outside of DCS World and there are quite a few titles out there that DO utilize DX12.

 

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817438018

 

^^ this 850w Gold rated power supply is $120 for the next 19 hours, fully modular and backed by a 10 year EVGA warranty. Just price point alone is a winner in my book. Jump on that before the sale ends imo.

 

That and backing off to maybe a 9700k is like $175 saved vs 9900k and his current choice of PSU and should be more than enough to keep him more than happy with dx12 performance as well as DCS now and whenever vulkan comes.

 

Then there's this "future proofing" concept... any of the three CPU's plus his other hardware selections can potentially last him 3-5 years maybe longer. At least that's been my experience in PC building when choosing the most recently released parts. If the OP is shooting for the best hardware he can buy and can afford to do so I'm not sure what people's criticism of that comes from as long as he's happy with it. 9600K, 9700K, 9900K, he's liable to be giddy like a school girl when he gets this thing put together. Or maybe that was just me when I finally finished the rig in my specs ;)


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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... If the OP is shooting for the best hardware he can buy and can afford to do so I'm not sure what people's criticism of that comes from as long as he's happy with it.

10/10. Like almost everywhere else in life you better buy "too good" than "too bad" for your peace of mind. Those buying the "big systems" now first are the last ones to upgrade in the next decade.

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Agree Headwarp

 

After D/L DCS and testing on this 9600K build anything 9600K or better and 750W to 850W should be fine.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Agree Headwarp

 

After D/L DCS and testing on this 9600K build anything 9600K or better and 750W to 850W should be fine.

 

The best hardware is the appropriated hardware for the purpose.

 

9600K for all practical use and purposes in gaming is probably the best bang for the buck from intel right now.

 

9700K is more up my personal alley, Sillicon Lottery stating as of Feb 6th 35% of their samples hit 5.1ghz or higher, might still require an AVX offset of 4.9ghz or lower however according to tom's guide, and even if you don't win the the lotto the company is named after, it's pretty much guaranteed to be able to handle 4.9ghz on all 8 cores. And in some dx12 benchmarks I'm seeing it has a bigger performance gap with the 9600K (not a huge amount) than I'm seeing between 9700K/9900K.

 

9900K, purely bragging rights. But it isn't up to me how other people spend their dough. With ryzen 3000 around the corner, I'm not sure I would go this route even if I shopped for bragging rights as opposed to clock frequency and core count. Although the thought has occured just because it's compatible with my z370 board. >.< Ultimately not worth it for me.

 

I mean I made a 2500K last me until 2018 and paired with the 980Ti i was using with it, it's still a capable gamer in most cases below a certain resolution. my 8th gen is going to be with me for awhile. On that note, however - if 9th gen had been available at the end of 2017 when I was building, I'd be rocking a 9700K and z390 board right now, just because newer hardware is likely to receive driver support further into the future.

 

Also personally, the 850W Gold rated EVGA psu for $20 more than the 750W seasonic choice is worth it in the US. EVGA has solid customer service. I'm not saying seasonic doesn't. But I know from personal experience EVGA USA tends to be on the ball should you encounter problems with their hardware within a warranty period, as well as the choice of purchasing optional extended warranties that also adds the option of having replacement hardware cross-shipped. I've never purchased the additional coverage, I've only had to have a video card replaced once, I used an older card for about a week and a half maybe two and I live on the other side of the country from EVGA. Pre-paid shipping labels provided. 24/7 phone service.

 

In the US we're lucky to get a return policy from a retailer, though most offer a "protection plan" at additional cost. Barring that we deal directly with the manufacturer.

 

Best Buy's protection plan is pretty awesome if you have a store near by. Other than that I stick to manufacturer's warranties.


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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I'm certainly not opposed to an EVGA PSU. Actually, EVGA and Seasonic were the only two I was really considering based on reviews and forum replies. The main reason I threw Seasonic in the build (both brands were within a couple dollars of each other at the time) was I read several reviews where the EVGA PSUs were pretty darn loud. Do you guys have any insight or experience with that? As has been said, EVGA's customer service sounds absolutely top notch. I would be happy to go the PSU route through them as well.

i5-9600k @ 5.0 GHz| Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | 32 GB Trident G.Skill RAM @ 3200 MHz | Thermaltake Floe Riing 360 AIO | Samsung EVO 860 500 GB SSD | Crucial MX500 500 GB M.2 | SanDisk 1TB SSD | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Ultra Gaming | EVGA G3 850W Gold PSU | Thermaltake View 71 TG Snow Edition | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFC Crosswind pedals | Oculus Rift-S

 

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I'm certainly not opposed to an EVGA PSU. Actually, EVGA and Seasonic were the only two I was really considering based on reviews and forum replies. The main reason I threw Seasonic in the build (both brands were within a couple dollars of each other at the time) was I read several reviews where the EVGA PSUs were pretty darn loud. Do you guys have any insight or experience with that? As has been said, EVGA's customer service sounds absolutely top notch. I would be happy to go the PSU route through them as well.

 

I'm pretty sure my case and radiator fans make more noise than my EVGA PSU. And while nowhere near as loud as previous generations, especially blower designs.. just wait til you spin those 2080Ti fans up to 100%. I mean.. no where near as annoying as a hair drier but I can hear it through my headphones when things get quiet in game. That being said.. my gpu hardly hits 50C, and I'm running at 100% fan speed by 45C with my custom curves. You can probably get away with lower RPM.

 

In another sim I fly.. there have been times I thought it was an alarm going off at an airfield.

 

*Edit* Forgive my editing lol. I can get carried away on the topic of hardware.


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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I'm pretty sure my case and radiator fans make more noise than my EVGA PSU. And while nowhere near as loud as previous generations, especially blower designs.. just wait til you spin those 2080Ti fans up to 100%. I mean.. no where near as annoying as a hair drier but I can hear it through my headphones when things get quiet in game.

 

In another sim I fly.. there have been times I thought it was an alarm going off at an airfield.

 

Lol! Gotcha, thanks! :thumbup:

i5-9600k @ 5.0 GHz| Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | 32 GB Trident G.Skill RAM @ 3200 MHz | Thermaltake Floe Riing 360 AIO | Samsung EVO 860 500 GB SSD | Crucial MX500 500 GB M.2 | SanDisk 1TB SSD | EVGA RTX 2080 Ti Ultra Gaming | EVGA G3 850W Gold PSU | Thermaltake View 71 TG Snow Edition | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFC Crosswind pedals | Oculus Rift-S

 

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See now that you have me paying attention to it.. I'm putting my ear up against the computer, just on the desktop. There is a bit of a mid to high pitched whine sitting 3-5 feet away. It could very well be my EVGA PSU but for the life of me I can't tell as I try to put my ear closer to specific fans, as near each fan I just hear the lower rumble of air being pushed or perhaps the vibrations of the fans in the case. PSU is within an enclosure inside the case and I can't get my ear to the fan, but don't hear the whine when I put my ear at the back of the psu. Or any one fan lol. But its definitely related to airflow.

 

Changing my h100 fan speeds and gpu fan speeds doesn't effect it.

 

Fans for h100 radiator are pretty loud at balanced or extreme settings, but temps are fine at "quiet".

 

GPU isn't that loud below 70% fan rpm. 70% or above, like I said.. airbase alarm, the slow speed when you first start cranking the handle lol. Default fan speeds you might never hear them. My custom curves are just aggressive.

 

Leaving my pc running and my bedroom being across the hall, I can hear the airflow but it's white noise to me. Sitting here next to it, I hear the mid-pitched whine. I'm used to the sound of computer fans however and I didn't build for the least amount of decibels. If you plan to use headphones it might not be as big a deal.

 

So maybe return policies are a good thing to check into if noise levels are of concern. In my case it's nothing that makes me unhappy with my hardware. Personally - I'm calling a slim chance you'll be buying a 2nd $1300 gpu lol. 750W should be fine with single gpu. EVGA psu i linked is a good deal for the remaining hours of that sale price but newegg has a restocking fee and you probably have to cover shipping to return within the 30 day return period after opening. Used to be easy to convince a rep to waive the restocking fee back in the day over the phone, but I'm not so sure about that these days as policies seem to have changed. So if the seasonic is known for being less noisy, and that's a big deal to you stick to your guns. EVGA customer service wins me over at the pricepoint of the sale though. Also noting that the EVGA psu has "eco" mode via a switch on the back, the fan won't spin unless the psu needs it with it on.


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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this is only true if the graphics subsystem is completely rewritten to use 8 threads.

 

and if they do that, what happens on old legacy systems (the most popular, by far) with only 4 or 6 core cpu’s ?

 

0.o I mean.. wouldn't the answer be somewhere along the lines of, the same thing that happened to dual cores, or, pentium/celeron or..486, or 386.. commodore 64/tandy color computer?

 

People will upgrade, buy a console, or find a new hobby. ;)

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3729544&postcount=1

 

I think I've seen it mentioned within that thread that the development team has some lower-end systems around as well, so I doubt they'll be completely phasing out quad cores with vulkan if it were released this year. No telling on that timeframe however. Converting DCS to dx11 was a 4 year ordeal if I remember correctly. 8th and 9th gen purchases for DCS alone should be based on clock frequency, 4.9ghz or above used to be a best case scenario, with newer hardware it's easier to achieve and best case is 5.1-5.2ghz. If you're playing dx12 games the extra cores are nice.


Edited by Headwarp
Spoiler

Win 11 Pro, z790 i9 13900k, RTX 4090 , 64GB DDR 6400GB, OS and DCS are on separate pci-e 4.0 drives 

Sim hardware - VKB MCG Ultimate with 200mm extension, Virpil T-50CM3 Dual throttles.   Blackhog B-explorer (A), TM Cougar MFD's (two), MFG Crosswinds with dampener.   Obutto R3volution gaming pit.  

 

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this is only true if the graphics subsystem is completely rewritten to use 8 threads.

 

and if they do that, what happens on old legacy systems (the most popular, by far) with only 4 or 6 core cpu’s ?

 

What would happen to them? They will simply not be able to push as much performance as newer CPUs with more cores. If you make the game engine use 8 threads it does not mean that it will not be possible to run on less. It will simply not be as powerful.

 

And what would be the point in DCS conversion if it would not use more threads than now?

Do, or do not, there is no try.

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Sapphire Nitro+ Rx Vega 64, i7 4790K ... etc. etc.

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I was searching, actually still am, for a new board for my 8700k and my RAM. Maybe even toss it all to the bin and go AMD, but I want 7nm if I go AMD, so that is not an option YET.

 

Thing is, there are maybe 2 Z390 boards I would consider worth the money, effort and time, the rest of those boards are more or less garbage across the line imho. Lots of bling bling but nothing substantial. Looking at the X470 tells me they ( MSI Asus Asrock etc.. ) do still know what good VRM's look like and how they should be priced.

 

I searched from 8pm till 1am and found NONE that cries "BUY ME, I AM WORTH IT". They all either lack a thing I really want, like a 10Gbit LAN adapter for a 2019 board, good VRM's with good headroom, Dual Bios and some other gimmicks.

 

In frustration I ended the session, getting more and more the believe that my next rig will be a 7nm Threadripper, 12 - 16 cores ( likely 16 ) and either accepts my 32GB or I go 64GB right away.

 

When I read the * and the ** and the *** at the end of the specs sheet I am close to throwing up my meal, honestly....advertising 3 x NVMe and then SILENTLY admitting that if you do so, well, ehhhh...you know...you will have to turn 4 x Sata off...or run your GPU in 8x mode or any stupid combo of that. Yeah, I read those *'s and **'s paragraphs, that's where they trick you. In the end, FU&&ING Intel only has 16x lanes and not 1 not 2 and not 3 NVMe stickers on the box will change that.

 

Then...so many cores and Dual channel, it exceeds the rule of thumb, GB volume / throughput = ~1sec. Once you need 32GB or even more, make sure it doesnt take 5min to read the RAM, it should never be more than 1sec for our gaming needs or its useless slow. OK, I do excessive VMware and need lots of RAM and bandwidth, most dont have that need.

 

As I found out, my NICE board has a crippled 4+1 Phase with the worst qualiyt of rectifiers and what not else China produces. Thank you Asus. Learned that lesson.

 

I am all for threadripper, 7nm, 16 cores and somewhere 4.5-5GHz....64 lanes, plenty NVMe, mGPU, plenty Sata, plenty everything but cheaper than all that Intel BS that's on the market now.

 

I wouldnt wanna "have to" buy now, before AMD brings 7nm. The rice cooker trophy is now at Intel, not AMD anymore.

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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...
Asus failed with this generation considering the highend boards. Look into EVGA X390 Dark, it just was released for sale outside the US, has real 16 phase VRM with cooling. With a good 8700K or similiar you might get a stable 5.3 with a healthy voltage if everything else is right. Or go build a AMD machine because I dislike Intels "market monopoly" but at the same time I want the performance for a future Pimax 8K setup, so go ahead with AMD. :music_whistling:
Edited by Der Hirte
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You want to aim for 50% power supply utilization during load as that's the point where the power supply is the most efficient. But that is just my take on it.

 

As for Vulkan, games based on it are usually 8 threaded. They hardly utilize the CPU for 100%, but they do not have to. The goal is to make the workload as much paralel as possible to not bottleneck the GPU when there are heavy CPU bound workloads.

Yes, 50-60% load when gaming, what you do most often, not when you stress test the system rarely.

 

The goal is to offload the primary core.

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Critique my list: PC build

 

What would happen to them? They will simply not be able to push as much performance as newer CPUs with more cores. If you make the game engine use 8 threads it does not mean that it will not be possible to run on less. It will simply not be as powerful.

 

threads don’t run by themselves, they have to be assigned to a physical core and then started.

 

if you have 8 render threads and only 4 cores, some of those threads will be put to sleep until a core becomes available.

 

at any given time, 1/2 of those threads will be sleeping, waiting for the other half to finish.

 

and don’t forget, someone has to coordinate all those 8 threads so you have to have locks and critical sections in the code to keep everything synchronized.. which often leads to stutter and deadlocks

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First, it was said to him to step up the wattage of the PSU after he got recommended to take the 9900K instead of 9600K or 9700K, which draws more power especially if overclocked.

The 9600K and the 9900K will need almost the same wattage when gaming DCS. Any K CPU are overclock able.

 

1) Because the system he is about to decide on could pull more than 600W and this is without a (aftermarket) overclocked graphics card. If he decides on overclocking it, which is the smart move considering the fact he is buying a EVGA card, he needs headroom since overclocked graphic cards pull a lot more power real fast the higher you clock.
750w is enough for a big CPU and a big video card. Don't think his system will burn 600w when gaming. It's more like 400-450w. That mean less than 60% of the load. Efficiency is almost the same.

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2) PSUs degrade over time, you don't want to buy a PSU which initially is strong enough to drive your system but after 2 years it can't handle the power draw anymore.

Yes, but 2 years is premature and the Seasonic is warranty for 10 years. That mean it's a solid PSU.

 

3) PSUs have a certain efficiency. The wattage the manufacturer claims the PSU to have must not be as high as what the system actually needs after the electricity has passed through the PSU. I doubt all the manufacturers calculate their wattage the same way, I wouldn't trust them for their PSUs to actually give your system the power they claim the unit can deliver into the system instead of pulling it ouf of the wall
750w is at the output of the PSU, not the input. The max wattage of a Seasonic 750w (continous wattage) is 825w. I highly trust Seasonic and Super Flower.
Edited by Demon_

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