Pitch UP when Carrier Launch with Auto Flap

" I think all of you include me, did not test it enough before."

Because it is not how the Hornet is flown

 

"think ED should check that small amount of movement is rational"

trim switch on the control stick at a rate of 0.5°/second-from the Natops

 

"But, I found another bug instead that that elevator trim is not work sometimes whether plane is fast or even in slow. "

Or maybe your trim switch is intermittent ?

Hey, how fly hornet is not by FCS but by Pilot.

You should write down to your hornet manual about Natops's

And, My stick Switch is OK. It never fails before. My stick is VKB Gunfighter Pro MKII.

And stop insulting to who report the irrational behavior of ED product.

They including me spent own time to fix your product.

We are the customer not the opponent.

I'm not ED .

I AM offering reproducible EVIDENCE and Natops references to support my positions

You can only offer OPINIONS , while constantly moving goalposts .

I'm not ED .

 

I AM offering reproducible EVIDENCE and Natops references to support my positions

 

You can only offer OPINIONS , while constantly moving goalposts .

All of these posts are OPINIONS. you should not regards them as irrational we also provide EVIDENCE not only you.

And there are still too many Goalposts!

Try this .

Freeflight over Caucasus .

Autopilot to ATTH .

Hold down trim button for 10 seconds with neutral stick

Compare the result to the Natops figure .

See how the results compare with your oft-expressed opinion

I didn't realise i was talking to royalty

I'm not ED .

 

I AM offering reproducible EVIDENCE and Natops references to support my positions

 

You can only offer OPINIONS , while constantly moving goalposts .

And ignoring evidence provided by others it would seem.

Try this .

Freeflight over Caucasus .

Autopilot to ATTH .

Hold down trim button for 10 seconds with neutral stick

Compare the result to the Natops figure .

 

See how the results compare with your oft-expressed opinion

 

I didn't realise i was talking to royalty

You do not realize yet. You are talking to ED customer not a royalty.

Please try it with yourself, I will not try FA-18 anymore until ED release formal version.

I'm not a beta tester, and quite fatigue to argue with irrational behavior of ED product.

I spent some hours of my personal two nights for this irrational high pitch up recovery test and trim control switch bug.

I prefer reading full ED manual of formal release to testing early access with looking up NATOPS next time.

So, I will not buy Early access beta or alpha version anymore.

No need to reply it's my last post of this thread.

There are still some weird bugs in F-18, and you can report this in the bugs section.

 

I have no doubt ED is quite aware of this. Landing and take-off parts of flight modeling are likely put in separate coding bubbles, and either they can go expand on that, or, in the mean time, they cannot.

 

Staying within the parameters of the coding, i.e. staying within the limits of what is possible, keeps you within the parameters of the simulation 'as is'.

This

And ignoring evidence provided by others it would seem.

Reference ?

Because he's about to do exactly what the OP described:

 

???

The issue is that a cold start jet can do an auto flaps takeoff and the aircraft returns to 1G trim shortly after takeoff.

If you spawn a hot start jet on the end of the runway and select flaps auto and then takeoff you end up with jet that is trimmed to 3-4G depending on speed.

This is going too far, don't you think? What I learned from this thread:

1) The correct start procedure is a MUST, step by step. Read the manual

2) A plane taking off with a wrong start procedure will not have a correct behavior. Read the Manual

3) You can overcome this problem with a simple procedure, but this means that you are doing one of the most beautiful parts in this sim like a "Cold start" in the wrong manner. Read the manual.

4) In a sim this user-produced plane behavior is just a minor thing (i don't think that this is a bug), but in real life can this take the life of an unaware pilot? It seems that according to natops manual this is a real probability if you take off with your plane not started correctly following the wright step by step procedure.

I think that this last point is the real thing in this thread but only a former or actual F18 pilot can put some light on this.

I don’t think that this thread is irrational, If you take of with minimum weight, why do you need to use half flaps? But if this “half flaps before trim” is a must I will not say anything against this, but this “wtf!, I forgot to put half flaps” is a really threat against your life situations.

 

There must be an alarm just like when Im to take of with the wings folded.

 

 

Sent from my Tornado IDS while on autopilot using Tapatalk Pro.

A good read, on how you can nearly lose an F-18, a pilot and an instructor pilot, through just missing an "unimportant" step in the startup checklist, is Mac "Serge" Tucker's "Fighter Pilot - Mis-Adventures beyond the sound barrier". It gives you a nice idea why basically everything on the checklist can turn into a life threatening desaster. ;)

The key in this particular situation was the ATT switch on the HUD panel.

So no, there is no warning provided for not following correct procedure and disregarding the checklist.

As for the "half-flaps" most likely, because the guy programming the FCS in the real world, wanted the pilot to indicate his intent to the system?

There is a lot of information on the whole FCS and Flaps operation in the NATOPS manual.

It controls and flies the plane.

The Meat-Puppet-Stickactuator (Pilot) mostly indicates his maneuver intentions to the FCS, through the stick, rudder and throttle, then the FCS interprets his intentions and sets the control surfaces (accordingly), sometimes limiting possible movement to a safe regime... you can override some of these limits, but it is nothing like a "normal" plane with direct stick and rudder input.

But why if you take off from a carrier or a runway with flaps on auto and do the auto trim the plane pitch up, literally I have to push forward strongly to lower the nose. I’m new so most probably is my fault but I want to known why is this happening.

 

 

Sent from my Tornado IDS while on autopilot using Tapatalk Pro.

I know, I'm just clarifying that WOW issue isn't what's happening here - it's not the stabilator causing pitch up.

 

As far as I know, trim DOES work in Auto flaps mode, it's just really really slow for pitch trim (which I think I read was accurate) - I'm sure if you watch the FCS you'll see some numbers moving but it's nowhere near quick enough to tackle the violent pitch up the LEF/TEF are causing.

You can't get more unequivocal than this

From the POH

2.8.4.4 CK FLAPS Caution Display. The CK FLAPS DDI caution is displayed at takeoff when the

FLAP switch is in AUTO.

2.10.1.3 Weight-On-Wheels (WOW) System. Numerous aircraft systems function differently

depending upon whether the aircraft is on the ground or is airborne. The most important of these

functions include: various flight control laws, landing gear operation, master arm and stores jettison,

fuel dump operation, AOA HUD indexers and approach lights, Automatic Throttle Control (ATC) and

autopilot operation, pitot static, AOA and total temperature probe heating, fuel tank pressurization,

and the inflight IDLE and afterburner lockout throttle stops. To determine when the aircraft is on the

ground, a proximity switch on each gear indicates when there is weight on each of the wheels. There

are a variety of failure conditions which may result in false indications of WOW or weight off wheels.

These include: a misrigged landing gear WOW proximity switch, a WOW proximity switch failure, an

improperly serviced landing gear strut, a landing gear control unit failure, or a problem with the

aircraft wiring.

An uncommanded pitch up after takeoff may occur if a WOW system

failure results in the aircraft sensing weight on wheels while inflight.

The first indication of the aircraft sensing WOW while inflight is the inability to raise the landing

gear handle. Other possible indications include the CHECK TRIM caution, NWS on the HUD, and the

CK FLAPS caution if the FLAP switch is moved to AUTO. The aircraft may then quickly undergo an uncommanded pitch up which is caused by the large stabilator deflection present at takeoff. Normally,the stabilator deflection would be trimmed out automatically by the flight control system. As airspeedincreases, the uncommanded pitch up rate increases. Maintaining airspeed as slow as practical helpscontrol nose pitch up and assists in lowering the aircraft’s nose. Above 180 knots, full forward stickalone does not stop aircraft nose up rotation, so nose down trim is required to regain control of theaircraft. The FLAP switch should also remain in HALF since the pitch up rate increases if the FLAPswitch is moved to AUTO.

Correct procedure is important, but nobody want to die just flap sw to auto.

It is military plane. Not a sports plane. And if the trim SW is work as in half flap, no problem.

Simple. Correct the Bug!

And you are right, it is a military plane. If you don't follow the procedures IRL, your instructor will reprimand you and ultimately kick you out, as you are no military pilot material, if you can't follow orders, just to prove a point, while endangering a multi-million dollar plane.

:thumbup:

This is going too far, don't you think? I learned this from this thread:

 

1) The correct start procedure is a MUST, step by step. Read the manual

2) A plane taking off with a wrong start procedure will not have a correct behavior. Read the Manual

3) You can overcome this problem with a simple procedure, but this means that you are doing one of the beautiful parts like "Start a plane" in the wrong manner. Read the manual.

 

4) In a sim this user-produced plane behavior is just a minor thing (i don't think that this is a bug), but in real life can this take the life of an unaware pilot? It seems that according to natops manual this is a real probability if you take off with your plane not started correctly following the wright step by step procedure.

 

I think that this last point is the real thing in this thread but only a former or actual F18 pilot can put some light on this.

From the POH

 

2.8.4.4 CK FLAPS Caution Display. The CK FLAPS DDI caution is displayed at takeoff when the

FLAP switch is in AUTO.

 

2.10.1.3 Weight-On-Wheels (WOW) System. Numerous aircraft systems function differently

depending upon whether the aircraft is on the ground or is airborne. The most important of these

functions include: various flight control laws, landing gear operation, master arm and stores jettison,

fuel dump operation, AOA HUD indexers and approach lights, Automatic Throttle Control (ATC) and

autopilot operation, pitot static, AOA and total temperature probe heating, fuel tank pressurization,

and the inflight IDLE and afterburner lockout throttle stops. To determine when the aircraft is on the

ground, a proximity switch on each gear indicates when there is weight on each of the wheels. There

are a variety of failure conditions which may result in false indications of WOW or weight off wheels.

These include: a misrigged landing gear WOW proximity switch, a WOW proximity switch failure, an

improperly serviced landing gear strut, a landing gear control unit failure, or a problem with the

aircraft wiring.

An uncommanded pitch up after takeoff may occur if a WOW system

failure results in the aircraft sensing weight on wheels while inflight.

The first indication of the aircraft sensing WOW while inflight is the inability to raise the landing

gear handle. Other possible indications include the CHECK TRIM caution, NWS on the HUD, and the

CK FLAPS caution if the FLAP switch is moved to AUTO. The aircraft may then quickly undergo an uncommanded pitch up which is caused by the large stabilator deflection present at takeoff. Normally,the stabilator deflection would be trimmed out automatically by the flight control system. As airspeedincreases, the uncommanded pitch up rate increases. Maintaining airspeed as slow as practical helpscontrol nose pitch up and assists in lowering the aircraft’s nose. Above 180 knots, full forward stickalone does not stop aircraft nose up rotation, so nose down trim is required to regain control of theaircraft. The FLAP switch should also remain in HALF since the pitch up rate increases if the FLAPswitch is moved to AUTO.

This issue is not what's described in 2.10.1.3 - the stabilator is neutral, it's the LEF and TEF causing the pitch up. This thread really didn't need 12 pages of discussion (which is why I originally made it in the bug forum, not the discussion forum) - if it's not a bug then ED will mark it [NOT A BUG] and disregard it. If it is, they'll correct it when they're good and ready. It doesn't need everyone's opinion.

This issue is not what's described in 2.10.1.3 - the stabilator is neutral, it's the LEF and TEF causing the pitch up. This thread really didn't need 12 pages of discussion (which is why I originally made it in the bug forum, not the discussion forum) - if it's not a bug then ED will mark it [NOT A BUG] and disregard it. If it is, they'll correct it when they're good and ready. It doesn't need everyone's opinion.

Well it is in the discussion area, I don't believe it to be a bug and I will express my opinion whenever I please.

No disrespect intended.

It's not procedures that are being discussed here.

DCS FA-18 is not a plane, is a monstrous number crunching automaton put together by talented software developers that tries to emulate as closely as possible the real life FA-18 in a personal computer.

OP is just trying to help these developers achieve their goal. He found a behavior in this DCS module that may, or may not, depart from the real plane; so he is reporting it to ED so that they can take a look at it, if that's even possible accounting for their extremely busy to-do list.

The "correct procedures" is the high level part of the game, the "let's pretend" part.

I find really sad how people can not make the distinction between the mundane code implementation and debugging side of things and the pretending game, and tend to heavily disrupt relatively trivial threads like this. Also sad how the computer science jargon word 'bug' has completely lost its original meaning.

It's just a little bit of the implementation in code of the FCS, which is effectively a reverse engineering emulator of an existing software, that needs a check if possible. And if it's not possible because there is 10,000 items with higher priority it's fine aswell.

Reference ?

A video showing a RL auto-flap takeoff.

Perhaps there may be other factors at play (who knows, maybe they're especially configured to be able to do this) in that particular jet, in which case it wouldn't be appropriate to the model in DCS, and the current behaviour is accurate. In which case, say that.

If someone sees something strange and asks what's up, 'because checklist' is an extremely poor response and answers nothing. It stifles interesting debates, makes for a hostile environment, and people trying to learn the whys of this plane reluctant to ask questions.

Also, what average_pilot said.

It's not procedures that are being discussed here

 

 

The "correct procedures" is the high level part of the game, the "let's pretend" part

.

 

Also sad how the computer science jargon word 'bug' has completely lost its original meaning.

Everything about aviation is about procedures, even on simulators.

Simulators are all about let's pretend it's not limited to procedures

Yes, the term originated from a bug being stuck and fried between contacts in Bill Gates train setup at university where he was developing train track switching circuits.

I find the topic in this thread interesting because I have experienced the same phenomenon when launching from a carrier with flaps in auto.

The question I want to ask is why the real life aircraft will bring up a caution when flaps are on auto for take off if they are not supposed to be unintended consequences?.

Just my opinion and I am not trying to upset or fight with anyone.

Here's another thing to consider wrt the video of a take off with flaps on auto.

Tthe pilot started his take off run with auto flaps and as soon as there was no weight on wheels, he switched to half flap.

Maybe he didn't, and the pitch, whose severity depends on speed, was disguised as he flew faster and hoisted the ship towards the heavens.

We dont know so all we have is the manual and speculation.

If this aircraft behaviour was untenable to me, I would fly in game mode and concentrate on the weapons delivery systems.

Another last thought, perhaps the reason for the take off in auto and stabilator neutral, was to achieve a short take off run. It was an airshow wasnt it?

Everything about aviation is about procedures, even on simulators.

Sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for a realistic (and proportionate) response if we deviate. Learning and understanding the consistences of your mistakes is valuable IMO.

I find the topic in this thread interesting because I have experienced the same phenomenon when launching from a carrier with flaps in auto.

 

The question I want to ask is why the real life aircraft will bring up a caution when flaps are on auto for take off if they are not supposed to be unintended consequences?

The primary consequence of a no flap takeoff (in general, not hornet specific) is longer and faster takeoff runs. If you plan for it and are light enough that might not be an issue depending on the airframe.

Just my opinion and I am not trying to upset or fight with anyone.

Thanks. I wish more people would be open to discussing topics like this instead of mindlessly dismissing them.

The pilot started his take off run with auto flaps and as soon as there was no weight on wheels, he switched to half flap.

 

Maybe he didn't, and the pitch, whose severity depends on speed, was disguised as he flew faster and hoisted the ship towards the heavens.

 

We dont know so all we have is the manual and speculation.

The FCS will schedule flaps as a function of AoA and other factors (once weight is off wheels), so the switch may well have remained in auto.