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Old 03-14-2018, 12:34 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by kolga View Post
He answered your question, no need to get snarky.
and you actually believe him?
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:23 AM   #342
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and you actually believe him?
I consider his claim somewhat equal to Mfezi's (points removed due to MAJOR vagueness) You can't just say "I believe this random internet guy, but not this one" they each hold weight until proven otherwise of course.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:51 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by kolga View Post
Ok, so i know that the realness of the video is back in question, but just in case if it is found genuine i'll reply.




Soo, your wrong and so you switch topics? AIM-9X flash is bigger than afterburners. Twice as big as what?



I thought you said the video was extremely grainy?



And yet missiles can lock on the sun, the hottest part. Just because most of the missile is still intact doesn't mean its unscathed, if anything it supports the no-small-warhead position.



I was just pointing out that your invalid example of rocket fuel was even more invalid because it is highly explosive, something you kept denying.



Yeah, i was referring to the first one.



Yep, you have yet to state your source for that knowledge.



What is why? There probably being 1 or more seconds left??? That makes no sense.



So what you are saying is, that police chopper FLIR and Attack chopper FLIR are the same? That also makes no sense.

Also during the flash in the hellfire videos there is a grey overlay on the flash which is not on the OP.



The video you posted, the "white hot human" one, I measured the wall next to the dude to get an estimation for 1m, then measured the flash and divided that by the amount of px to make 1m.



I am not saying that missiles always explode like heck without warhead, just that they can.



Why not? They should know more about the structure than the pilots.





What the heck? Like you say Super grainy video. And what are you trying to say?
The diameter of the flash is twice as big as the afterburner length.

And it is grainy but I can find no other explanation for that long, white object.

IIR missiles don't lock the sun but they can be blinded by it. The flash is in the other video, this shot appears to be a through-and-through. Furthermore, it demonstrates that these missiles are fairly sturdy and don't simply obliterate on impact.

Not in the same sense as actual explosive, that's why the burning plume continues for some time after, rather than being over in an instant.

Well the first one is likely a small warhead, since it's a miss. And if a missile can pass through the fuselage in one piece (2nd one), it can sure as hell pass through a stab in one piece.

Come on, there are umpteen examples of live warhead missile tests on YT alone, even without resorting to professional knowledge.

Very little fuel left, therefore more likely to be a warhead causing such a large flash.

They're of similar quality and probably even made by the same firm in many cases.

We've seen two video with the same sized flash.

If it's like your other measurements, I'd say very dubious. What is your angle here anyway? Kinetic impact produces bigger flash than live warhead impact?

An aircraft ain't that hard, especially these newer composite ones. An AIM-9 stuck in the butt of a Chinese MiG intact, one passed through that F-15's fuselage intact. So your theory here is that both fuses failed and the missile couldn't make it through a thin stab intact??? That's like expecting a brick to be smashed when falling through a twig on the end of a branch.

They know more about replacing LRIs and maybe the desk guys know about FMECAs, but they weren't there. And you'd be surprised how much the pilots and crew have to know about the aircraft - I've also had experience qualifying aircrew courseware.

Probably a similar size to Hellfire strike in normal video.


Anyway, in the event this video is BS, which it may well be, the contractor could be right.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #344
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Good find, makes sense! Looks to abrupt for an intentional roll.
That we agree on.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:53 AM   #345
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Argentine pilots did.
What are you trying to imply with this statement ??
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:56 AM   #346
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That we agree on.
Definitely! Its not me against you, its a quest for truth!
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:34 AM   #347
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The diameter of the flash is twice as big as the afterburner length.
Ok, soo... umm... yeah.... ok. That doesn't change the fact that the Aim-9x flash is bigger than the afterburners, and much higher flame concentration.

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And it is grainy but I can find no other explanation for that long, white object.
The object is definitely the missile, but the length is very very hard to judge due to speed and video quality.

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IIR missiles don't lock the sun but they can be blinded by it. The flash is in the other video, this shot appears to be a through-and-through. Furthermore, it demonstrates that these missiles are fairly sturdy and don't simply obliterate on impact.
Then why did an f-18 pilot recently tell me about an incident where a cobra fired an IR missile and it shot up to the sun unexpectedly?

I was talking about the definite flash video, the one you claim small warhead, i was saying the missile still being mostly intact supports no warhead a lot more than small warhead.

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Not in the same sense as actual explosive, that's why the burning plume continues for some time after, rather than being over in an instant.
Umm, ok, i would disagree about explosives being over in an instant, but its an invalid discussion anyway because hydrazine is completely irrelevant.

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Well the first one is likely a small warhead, since it's a miss. And if a missile can pass through the fuselage in one piece (2nd one), it can sure as hell pass through a stab in one piece.
If the missile had a small warhead you would think it would not be intact after it detonated (1st video).

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Come on, there are umpteen examples of live warhead missile tests on YT alone, even without resorting to professional knowledge.
Yep, i was asking about your claim of small warheads, not normal warheads, sorry for misunderstanding.

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Very little fuel left, therefore more likely to be a warhead causing such a large flash.
So all of the sudden there is proof of very little fuel left???
I have proven there to be more then enough potential FLIR signature with only 1 sec of motor left, i have done my part.

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They're of similar quality and probably even made by the same firm in many cases.
Yep, would you say the UH-1 and the AH-1 are of similar quality and made by the same firm?

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We've seen two video with the same sized flash.
Can you clarify what you're talking about???

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If it's like your other measurements, I'd say very dubious. What is your angle here anyway? Kinetic impact produces bigger flash than live warhead impact?
Then get some photo processing software and get your own measurements! (If you want to know the software i use and my methods just let me know). The angle is irrelevant in this specific case because the explosion is a sphere.

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An aircraft ain't that hard, especially these newer composite ones. An AIM-9 stuck in the butt of a Chinese MiG intact, one passed through that F-15's fuselage intact. So your theory here is that both fuses failed and the missile couldn't make it through a thin stab intact??? That's like expecting a brick to be smashed when falling through a twig on the end of a branch.
But how did it get stuck if the double fuze never fails?

Do you mean f-4? Yes, missiles don't disintegrate on impact, but they apparently can make a flash without a warhead.

Quote:
They know more about replacing LRIs and maybe the desk guys know about FMECAs, but they weren't there. And you'd be surprised how much the pilots and crew have to know about the aircraft - I've also had experience qualifying aircrew courseware.
I didn't mean it as a dig against pilots, just that the contractor probably has a greater understanding of the entire situation than a Dutch av mag.

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Probably a similar size to Hellfire strike in normal video.
Probably? PROBABLY???? There is literally no reference to go off of in that video!!!

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Anyway, in the event this video is BS, which it may well be, the contractor could be right.
Yeah, the video definitely is not 100% real, what is hard to tell is to what extent is it fake.....
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:45 AM   #348
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The AIM-9X flash is likely a small test warhead. The seeker is clearly aiming for the plume and catching a stab edge could not cause the missile to go up in a flash, since one flew straight through the fuselage. That said, the burners are probably near 2m wide in some places, which would quadruple their volume.

You can judge it relative to the size of the a/c. It also comes out the same size it went in. probably just had it's wings clipped off, like that plane that went through the Pentagon wall.

IR missiles probably did that all the time. IIR missiles will not mistake the sun for the a/c but they can be blinded by the sun.

Yes in that clip, it supports no warhead, but the flash is in a separate clip where there is no sign of the missile thereafter.

I've told you, personal knowledge. It's usually regularly and not just with missiles, it's the equivalent of a scale model wind tunnel test.

How would there be. SRAAMs only burn for about 5s.

You haven't though. How much fuel is there even to start with? How long does it burn after impact? Is the missile even likely to come apart after hitting a thin stab? Is the missile even likely to not explode? Not enough, quite long, no and no, are the answers.

Irrelevant.

Hellfire strikes with flash size similar to video.

By angle I mean your case. Are you saying kinetic impact produces bigger flash than live warhead?

That is the only such incident and involved 1950s electronics. Early AIM-9s also used a less reliable IR proxy fuse. 1950s fuses have a history of unreliability, which is just as well, because the US would have nuked themselves with a H-bomb, were it not the case.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-carolina-1961
This is also why there are WWII bombs still being found. Different era altogether but serves to demonstrate why fuses need testing under flight conditions

Yep, F4 fuselage. They can make a flash with a small warhead, or if they ignite fuel in the a/c's wings. A rear stab strike from an inert missile won't produce jack.

Depends on the source of the Dutch Av magazine and the source at the contractor. The latest theory is that it was a RFCLOS missile, which makes a direct hit very unlikely.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:33 AM   #349
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This one is interesting. This was F-15SA , which is a F-15E modified for Saudi with export version of Sniper (ER?) pod, and export version of radar, without ASARS. Not the pure air-air F-15C.
The weapon was a improvised SHORAD SAM IR/UV. Yemeni 'rebels' or other parties, took IRST system from MIG-29C export variant, and R-73 mounted on a railpylon from Mig-29C, which was mounted on a truck. No lasers, no active radar emissions. Total passive engagement. Probably assisted by consistent ingress and egress of F-15SA crews. Clever bastards. I suspect that Russians from factory helped them.
RAND, Boeing, and Raytheon are still studying it. As F-15's MAWS (missile approach warning system) should have started pumping out countermeasures.
Grudgingly we have accept that export versions of R-73 are capable of engaging F-15s.
The Air-Air record of F-15C stands. No F-15 has ever been shot down by another aircraft. F-15E, on other hand, have been hit by SAMs, during Desert Storm, Allied Force, and OIF. But loss rates are low. Less then 10 airframes across 25 years.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:23 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by DaveRindner View Post
This one is interesting. This was F-15SA , which is a F-15E modified for Saudi with export version of Sniper (ER?) pod, and export version of radar, without ASARS. Not the pure air-air F-15C.
The weapon was a improvised SHORAD SAM IR/UV. Yemeni 'rebels' or other parties, took IRST system from MIG-29C export variant, and R-73 mounted on a railpylon from Mig-29C, which was mounted on a truck. No lasers, no active radar emissions. Total passive engagement. Probably assisted by consistent ingress and egress of F-15SA crews. Clever bastards. I suspect that Russians from factory helped them.
RAND, Boeing, and Raytheon are still studying it. As F-15's MAWS (missile approach warning system) should have started pumping out countermeasures.
Grudgingly we have accept that export versions of R-73 are capable of engaging F-15s.
The Air-Air record of F-15C stands. No F-15 has ever been shot down by another aircraft. F-15E, on other hand, have been hit by SAMs, during Desert Storm, Allied Force, and OIF. But loss rates are low. Less then 10 airframes across 25 years.
I would really like to hear how you know this. (!)
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