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[CHECKING] Propeller is unrealistic and bent prop discussion


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No, but considering that prop moves at 2700 RPM, it does not look right.

 

It is not just about the RPM, it is about the frequency, it is about the blade angles, your head vibrations, lighting, colors etc etc.

 

Like in this same room where I am now, are multiple small RC engines, they have RPM's well over 10 000, and you can easily see those propellers rotating, vibrating and changing speeds etc in naked eye.

 

Read the article, go to the sources and read the sources (I did), and you will understand the topic.

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You want us to trust you over Nick Grey who's baby the P-47 is? Who has real time with it?

 

How about other people with flying as well with other propper aircrafts that sees that exact same thing as in the DCS is? You vs many?

 

We can play this "Blame to" game all time along.... Nothing will change the fact that human eye is capable to see such effects and it is not "camera shutter speed and frame rate" thing.

 

 

Some points to consider.

 

1. There is a big difference between “capable of seeing” and “visible all the time”

 

2. Show me where Nick Grey has stated the propeller visuals in DCS perfectly mimic real life no matter the hardware used.

 

3. There is a tremendous difference between what is visible when in VR and what is visible on a flat screen when it comes to propeller discs. What looks like a fairly accurate representation on my flat monitor is an ugly mess in my Rift S.

 

The VR issues with the propellers are easily corrected by cleaning up the textures but that breaks IC.

 

The solution is separate textures for VR users.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=276999


Edited by pmiceli

 

 

 

 

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You want us to trust you over Nick Grey who's baby the P-47 is? Who has real time with it?

 

How about other people with flying as well with other propper aircrafts that sees that exact same thing as in the DCS is? You vs many?

 

We can play this "Blame to" game all time along.... Nothing will change the fact that human eye is capable to see such effects and it is not "camera shutter speed and frame rate" thing.

 

At what point has Nick ever said the prop visibility in dcs is true to life?

If you don't belive us jump in an aircraft and have A look yourself. I'd love to be able to prove it to you but every video shows the props due to the shutter speed.

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No, but considering that prop moves at 2700 RPM, it does not look right.

 

Engine has reduction gear box prop rpm is lower, quite often it is about 1:0.5 which will give 1350 rpm.

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That is still above the frequency used by many "flicker free" light sources, and way above the numbers in that "Truly continuous illumination stroboscopy" quoted from wikipedia.

 

I've never seen a propeller that flickers, stops and changes direction like the ones in DCS, neither from the inside or from the outside of the plane. That also applies to rotors and rotors shadows in helicopters.


Edited by some1

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I think the best prop textures and animations has Bf-109 K-4 in dcs. ED just need to copy that to all warbirds.

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That is still above the frequency used by many "flicker free" light sources, and way above the numbers in that "Truly continuous illumination stroboscopy" quoted from wikipedia.

 

You do understand that frequencies does not have specific low rate speeds? You can go up to very high scales and it only changes the frequency gate sizes and positions with other things to match.

 

I've never seen a propeller that flickers, stops and changes direction like the ones in DCS, neither from the inside or from the outside of the plane. That also applies to rotors and rotors shadows in helicopters.

 

And I have, why I can say it is realistic thing.

And it is not just restricted to propellers, you can see it with many other things that are rotating or even completely still. I can't say about real P-47 as I have not sit in the cockpit of it, and need to leave it to the ED to decide.

 

It is how our brains and eyes work, not about "It is filed with a camera and why it is visible".

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You do understand that frequencies does not have specific low rate speeds? You can go up to very high scales and it only changes the frequency gate sizes and positions with other things to match.

 

 

 

And I have, why I can say it is realistic thing.

And it is not just restricted to propellers, you can see it with many other things that are rotating or even completely still. I can't say about real P-47 as I have not sit in the cockpit of it, and need to leave it to the ED to decide.

 

It is how our brains and eyes work, not about "It is filed with a camera and why it is visible".

 

A spinning propeller would "flicker" (obstruct the light source, reflect the sun on each blade, etc) at a frequency of: number of propellers X prop RPM. Which in case of P-47 would be around 4000 Hz.

 

That's way, way above the flicker frequency that's perceptible to human eye (low hundreds) and also way above the frequencies for subjective stroboscopy you quoted from wikipedia. Unless you put the propeller of a working engine under an artificial lighting or try to record it on a camera, it won't appear as it does in DCS.


Edited by some1

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That's way, way above the flicker frequency that's perceptible to human eye (low hundreds) and also way above the frequencies for subjective stroboscopy you quoted from wikipedia.

 

Go read it again, you are not counting the fact that you are sitting in a vehicle that is vibrating, causing your eyes to vibrate as well, generating completely another factor for it. It is NOT limited to low frequencies but is as well with tens of thousands of RPM's.

 

But when people see it IRL, it is just well simulated.

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At what point has Nick ever said the prop visibility in dcs is true to life?

 

Based to his interview, that what passion he has for the P-47 and to its development.

 

If you don't belive us jump in an aircraft and have A look yourself. I'd love to be able to prove it to you but every video shows the props due to the shutter speed.

 

Yes, I can see it in real life. Your point is moot.

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but artificial lighting's flicker is whats creating the stroboscopic effect, not your eyes and brain

your model aircraft props wont wagonwheel when you take them out under the sun

 

Read again:

 

There are two broad theories for the wagon-wheel effect under truly continuous illumination.

 

It is not about artificial lighting, it is about under one continuous illumination.

 

Seriously, go read the sources and more about the topic.

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Based to his interview, that what passion he has for the P-47 and to its development.

 

DCS P-47 has broken cockpit shadows, errors in the artwork, engine temperatures make no sense and have zero effect on the performance and there are many other issues reported in this forum. I wouldn't put too much faith in Nick Grey's Quality Assurance.

 

It is not about artificial lighting, it is about under one continuous illumination.

 

Seriously, go read the sources and more about the topic.

 

So far you have several pilots that commented that's not how it looks in real life, yet you still try to explain poor DCS graphics by some obscure phenomenon you've found on wikipedia, which requires certain conditions to happen. Like your eyeballs need to vibrate at multiples of object RPM - seriously? That absolutely does not explain why in DCS the prop looks like that all the time at every possible RPM.

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DCS P-47 has broken cockpit shadows, errors in the artwork, engine temperatures make no sense and have zero effect on the performance and there are many other issues reported in this forum. I wouldn't put too much faith in Nick Grey's Quality Assurance.

 

Sorry, I didn't know that P-47 was finished product.... As I said, I don't know about P-47 propeller itself, I only know the phenomenon is completely real and it is not as people believe to be related "only from cameras".

 

So far you have several pilots that commented that's not how it looks in real life, yet you still try to explain poor DCS graphics by some obscure phenomenon you've found on wikipedia, which requires certain conditions to happen.

 

Please go to read again.

 

Like your eyeballs need to vibrate at multiples of object RPM - seriously? That absolutely does not explain why in DCS the prop looks like that all the time at every possible RPM.

 

So now you claim that your eyeballs do not vibrate when you are sitting in an aircraft that is vibrating. Okay.

 

If you do not understand the concept, don't try to come claim that some pilots are right when they are directly opposite of the scientific phenomenon, and it can be seen in real life with even other real aircrafts in same way.

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...

 

Like in this same room where I am now, are multiple small RC engines, they have RPM's well over 10 000, and you can easily see those propellers rotating, vibrating and changing speeds etc in naked eye.

 

Read the article, go to the sources and read the sources (I did), and you will understand the topic.

 

Interesting, because I didn't notice any changes or visible speed change when reving up my RC engine (with exception of the very, very low RPM region of course). Neither did I see the effect we have in DCS.


Edited by razo+r
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Sorry, I didn't know that P-47 was finished product.... As I said, I don't know about P-47 propeller itself, I only know the phenomenon is completely real and it is not as people believe to be related "only from cameras".

 

 

 

Please go to read again.

 

 

 

So now you claim that your eyeballs do not vibrate when you are sitting in an aircraft that is vibrating. Okay.

 

If you do not understand the concept, don't try to come claim that some pilots are right when they are directly opposite of the scientific phenomenon, and it can be seen in real life with even other real aircrafts in same way.

 

So you are contradicting right there. We have been told to go off the words of Nick until we just pointed out other things that are not correct so you tell us it isn't finished, its one or the other. The P47 is great, we are just pointing out inaccuracies, which I am try to point out aren't just for the P47 but for the prop aircraft in general.

Nothing is perfect, we are providing feedback from real world prop experience.

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Based to his interview, that what passion he has for the P-47 and to its development.

 

 

 

Yes, I can see it in real life. Your point is moot.

 

Something not accounted for in this discussion is the differences in various humans visual perception.

 

Some people can perceive "flickering" and "still frames" at higher frequencies than others.

 

So while some individuals may perceive in real life what cameras detect, most humans do not.

 

I suspect you are one of those lucky few.

 

 

 

 

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Well, I am a pilot so I'd say I know what a prop looks like.

I never said they are invisible, but what I am saying is they are not moddled correct in the sim. They are modelled as if you are watching a video playback with a shutter speed, you can see this as the rpm increases and it looks like the prop changes direction. Something that the human eye doesn't see.

When looking through a propellor you can see that is is indeed there, but it isn't as visible in dcs.

 

I'm not sure what to say to this really... For my eyesight it is no different than looking outside at a moving car and watching their wheels rotate. The situation when viewed from a moving car looking at another vehicle traveling the same speed is an even better indication, as when the viewed car increases or decreases speed a noticeable effect of the wheel rotation can be viewed.

 

To put another example in place, this time aviation related, the spinner cap of most large high-bypass turbine engines incorporate some sort of swirl mark to signify rotation of the fan. It is obvious to see when the fan is stationary, but also when at idle speeds, accelerating, or decelerating.

 

In the sim, I'm not seeing any effect that is outside of what I have mentioned. There is no flickering of a prop, or rolling shutter effects like you are describing. I'd advise you to actually look up some of these effects and compare them with the sim, as either you are uninformed about how camera sensors capture footage of propellers and rotating objects or you are having your own texture issues within the sim different to that of how it is intended.

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I'm not sure what to say to this really... For my eyesight it is no different than looking outside at a moving car and watching their wheels rotate. The situation when viewed from a moving car looking at another vehicle traveling the same speed is an even better indication, as when the viewed car increases or decreases speed a noticeable effect of the wheel rotation can be viewed.

 

To put another example in place, this time aviation related, the spinner cap of most large high-bypass turbine engines incorporate some sort of swirl mark to signify rotation of the fan. It is obvious to see when the fan is stationary, but also when at idle speeds, accelerating, or decelerating.

 

In the sim, I'm not seeing any effect that is outside of what I have mentioned. There is no flickering of a prop, or rolling shutter effects like you are describing. I'd advise you to actually look up some of these effects and compare them with the sim, as either you are uninformed about how camera sensors capture footage of propellers and rotating objects or you are having your own texture issues within the sim different to that of how it is intended.

 

Have you not put the thought that you might be uninformed?

 

A turbine engine is not a comparison to a prop. That is the subject matter at hand here. It is clear people don't see everything the same, It is also apparent there are lots of people on here who are defending something they don't have first hand experience with. Which is pointless for bug reporting...

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Here is an image of one of the prop issues in dcs, you can see lines disturbing the image. In VR this looks horrible and creates a weird looking effect, along with getting random visual issues in the prop when flying.

Screen_200715_190353.thumb.png.da2d881f40693546a0e4d0496bb922c8.png

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  • ED Team

Wow, took me a while to find the bottom of this, anyways, I will ask Nick to review, but I also know they are trying to balance performance with looks. The props have been troublesome so we are looking for a happy middle ground, especially with VR in the mix.

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Wow, took me a while to find the bottom of this, anyways, I will ask Nick to review, but I also know they are trying to balance performance with looks. The props have been troublesome so we are looking for a happy middle ground, especially with VR in the mix.

 

The following applies to all props.

I think the best solution is two sets of textures. One for VR and one for flat earth.

 

If that isn’t feasible, the existing textures could use a cleaning. There is a lot of visual noise outside the prop arc that is visible in VR. I will try to post an image.

 

And don't forget to ask Nick if he sees monitor flicker below 100 Hz. If he does, he is going to see props flicker too.

 

Here is the existing P51 prop texture on a black background so you can see the noise and smudged areas in the image. Zoom in to a quarter of the image. In VR, when the sun shines on the P-51D prop, you can clearly see ALL of this noise and smudging. Uploading the image actually cleaned it up a little due to lower resolution.

 

P51-DProp-Noisebig.jpg


Edited by pmiceli

 

 

 

 

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DCS 2.5.6.52196 Open Beta 2020-07-15

 

Visual damage bug still with us, but different damage visuals.

 

Instead of prop missing, with entire cowling gone, I get damaged props (large holes, bent back) with some cowling damage.

 

Net effect though, is plane still responds and flies as if no damage.

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The following applies to all props.

I think the best solution is two sets of textures. One for VR and one for flat earth.

 

If that isn’t feasible, the existing textures could use a cleaning. There is a lot of visual noise outside the prop arc that is visible in VR. I will try to post an image.

 

And don't forget to ask Nick if he sees monitor flicker below 100 Hz. If he does, he is going to see props flicker too.

 

Here is the existing P51 prop texture on a black background so you can see the noise and smudged areas in the image. Zoom in to a quarter of the image. In VR, when the sun shines on the P-51D prop, you can clearly see ALL of this noise and smudging. Uploading the image actually cleaned it up a little due to lower resolution.

 

P51-DProp-Noisebig.jpg

 

 

This was reported back in early 2019 with this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=230270

 

I even provided "Cleaned" up versions of the files in question but nothing came of it. Hopefully they will look into it again.

 

 

PS And before this is removed for being "Off Topic", would just like to relate that this is still relevant as all the props should be standardized in effect and also quality of effect. Thank you


Edited by Shahdoh
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This was reported back in early 2019 with this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=230270

 

I even provided "Cleaned" up versions of the files in question but nothing came of it. Hopefully they will look into it again.

 

 

PS And before this is removed for being "Off Topic", would just like to relate that this is still relevant as all the props should be standardized in effect and also quality of effect. Thank you

 

I was actually looking for your thread so I wouldn't have to make my own image. I didn't find it.

 

One can only hope that the "clean" images will be put into an update.

 

 

 

 

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