How to Takeoff in the Dora

Some more remarks about theory and practice of takeoff

The theories behind forces which have impact on the plane during takeoff are more than complex:

Yaw, torque, P-factor (propeller’s angle of attack), gyroscopic precession

are the key factors which either boost or agitate against each other at the same time.

An important question is:

How well have these 4 factors been implemented in the flight model (FM) of the Dora?

These factors are describing the flight physics of real planes. We may discuss different Dora takeoff methods

FROM THEORY but we don’t know which of these factors are relevant for the virtual Dora and which not.

The FM of Dora is by far the most intrigue and perfect aviation simulation for any existing PC environment.

But it is still a simulation, not reality.

Therefore, back to practice:

Here is an example of a famous war bird the F4U Corsair, built from early 40th to late 50th

This powerful bird had aileron trim. For takeoff the pilot sets rudder 6 deg. right

and aileron 6 deg. right wing down. Here is a F4U instruction video, see clip at 6:20

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F4U.html

Whether it complies with theory or not, I’m able to successfully master takeoffs in the Dora as follows:

Max power (full throttle to START) straightway from the beginning of the takeoff run

hold the stick fully back and keep the plane centered on the runway by "determined" rudder control

until 170 km/h are gained

At about 170 - 180 km/h don't center the stick to the precise middle position but carefully to a little more middle-right position.

With the right wing a little down the Dora stays more safely on the runway as to apply too much right rudder only.

Even with crosswinds, regardless from right or left, apply “some” amount of right rudder and right aileron.

Don't just throw in any amount of right aileron. Let the airplane tell you what it needs then give that to the airplane.

This goes for BOTH, for aileron and rudder correction. The airplane will tell you what it wants. Fly this way and you'll do just fine.

Again, it’s all about the learning curve from multiple exercises . . . . this rule applies for real or sim planes equally.

Here is an example of a famous war bird the F4U Corsair, built from early 40th to late 50th

This powerful bird had aileron trim. For takeoff the pilot sets rudder 6 deg. right

and aileron 6 deg. right wing down. Here is a F4U instruction video, see clip at 6:20

 

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F4U.html

 

Similar is with Spitfire. Spitfire don't have taking off flaps position only full raised or lowered. When you taking off you should put your nose trim one notch down same as rudder trim little bit to the right. There is no ailerons trim in Spitfire at all but the point is the same.

Now when I can tell I master taking off the ground with Dora and have success in 95% of the time. Even in this 5% I could tell exactly what I did wrong and why I failed it. If I could concentrate without experimenting to see is it possible to do some other way I think I could reach even 100%.

The point is now I know exactly what I have to do. I even try some different approach as you can see here some people do it in different way. Now I manage to do it almost all way it was described here so every way is possible so you have to chose what is working best for you.

All this way have two thing in common and that is:

• keep plane go straight forward as much is possible without high deviation in direction using Rudder.
  
• when plane is ready to lift around 200Kph keep your wings straight horizontal by adding right rudder and stick to the right.
  

this two things are the key for success. There is no exact amount how much you just simply have to feel it. It is hard because this is game and you can only see it visually so need to practice.

Also it is depend on your joystick you got and how it is set up so all this is individual and you will learn it true practice.

This is the key feature as in real life plane have tendency to drag you left and left wing down you need to compensate it with rudder and joystick in opposite direction and you have to do it by the feeling and that is why you need to practice, to get that feeling for this plane as every plane is different.

So be patient and practice, practice, practice.

Good luck. :pilotfly:

I was looking around and found a pretty shocking video, this guy takes off in the FW 190 and he doesn't even die once. No violent roll or drama at all really despite being on a rough surface, just kind of glides up into the air. Sarcasm aside, the Dora is still the only module I don't enjoy, as much as I try too. Yes, It could be me being rubbish, but I find it hard to imagine the real thing is so difficult to take off in. This guy is no doubt an experienced airman. But those young, often inexperienced guys in the 40s would have destroyed more of there own aircraft than the RAF if it were so unforgiving I am sure...

^^disable take off assistance and autorudder, line up with the runway, pull the stick fully back, full throttle, right rudder, @ ~150kph center the stick slightly right off center and then slowly pull back on the stick to pull her up...that way shes almost taking off like on rails. if you know what to do, the dora is really not difficult to take off...

once you get a feel, there is not even the need to keep the stick pulled back during take off run.just correct rudder input will keep her straight as well.

dont want to be disrespectful, but the module is not the problem.

dont want to be disrespectful, but the module is not the problem.

Did all of that before flying it, like I said, it may well be me. I'm all for accuracy in DCS, but it has to be enjoyable also otherwise there isn't much point. I'm not enjoying the 190, glad you are.

I had an extremely hard time with the locked tail wheel/brake method, so I tried a different way some people here mentioned.

No locked tail wheel, stick in the middle and only use rudder the keep her straight. Ridiculously easy and always works.

Did all of that before flying it, like I said, it may well be me. I'm all for accuracy in DCS, but it has to be enjoyable also otherwise there isn't much point. I'm not enjoying the 190, glad you are.

can you maybe post a track?at which point do you struggle on take off?

I had an extremely hard time with the locked tail wheel/brake method, so I tried a different way some people here mentioned.

 

No locked tail wheel, stick in the middle and only use rudder the keep her straight. Ridiculously easy and always works.

^^yes, with correct rudder there is no need to pull the stick back.

^^disable take off assistance and autorudder, line up with the runway, pull the stick fully back, full throttle, right rudder, @ ~150kph center the stick slightly right off center and then slowly pull back on the stick to pull her up...that way shes almost taking off like on rails. if you know what to do, the dora is really not difficult to take off...

 

once you get a feel, there is not even the need to keep the stick pulled back during take off run.just correct rudder input will keep her straight as well.

 

dont want to be disrespectful, but the module is not the problem.

Yep, the module is definitely not the problem! I don't find it harder than the Mustang in any way.

Of course, the problem with any simulation is that you can not feel the plane moving, making it harder to counter things like torque or roll but with a bit of practice it shouldn't be a problem to anticipate it.

The Dora is different from the Mustang, mainly because the tail wheel doesn't move when locked like it does in the Pony but this can easily be compensated by putting the throttle to T/O power, waiting for the RPM to hit ~2700-3000RPM and only then release the brakes. This way you will have rudder authority from the prop wash alone which is enough to keep her lined up on the runway before you build up more speed.

I usually line up on the runway, lock the tail wheel and brake. I then center the stick, set the Bediengerät to Startleistung (T/O power), release the brakes just before the nose comes down and instantly, but carefully apply right rudder.

In crosswind conditions I will keep the stick centered until I hit ~160km/h.

If you look at the video you can see that immediately the wheels lift off the ground the left wing dips but the pilot catches it, keep watching, on the initial climb out the plane rolls to the right because he's overdone it, then it rolls back left, again he catches it then levels the wings finally (about 30 secs in). All this is in the simulation, but his seat falls over towards the left when the left wing drops but yours, like mine, presumably doesn't. The real thing has sensory inputs unavailable to the desktop jockey, so he can feel what's going on, we can't, so tough.

If you don't have a force feedback stick and pedals, I can appreciate that this seems difficult, but once you've got the knack and are paying attention it's straightfoward enough, but hats off to the guys with twist grip rudder control.

When the 109 arrives you'll wonder what you're complaining about, lift the tail too early in that and it'll take a sharp left and flip over with no chance of recovery. The problem is between the seat and the stick and that can be taught through practice.

Most of us are here because we expect this to be hard and expect that we will have to work at it, study the manuals and read up to try and glean any hints and tips from real pilot accounts to fly it well. But best wishes and good luck and don't give up, a fantastic feeling when you can easily land it as well. Try Yoyo's challenge and stop it when landing in less than 400m.

^^cant wait for the 109...but dont want to imagine the forum entries :)

can you maybe post a track?at which point do you struggle on take off?

 

^^yes, with correct rudder there is no need to pull the stick back.

I don't pull the stick back. I think you misunderstood, I was just making a light hearted sarcastic post although my points were genuine. I can take off, my point was it is messy and overly difficult imo, it's fine for us in our virtual planes with a reset button. I'm just trying to picture those young German pilots trying this for the first time and if the physics in this module are correct... rather them than me! I have spent years on this forum being positive, I am just not enjoying the 190 so you'll have to let me have this one.. no offense intended. I'm back in the P-51D and loving it. The P-51 isn't easy to take off by any means, but at least it doesn't try overly hard to kill you, even if she will bite your head off for abusing her, and I can stay pretty much centered on the run way as you would expect to see in reality. When I get up in the 190 it is usually sideways or by the skin of my teeth. Again, glad you're enjoying it. I prefer the 109 anyway, maybe I'll give that one more of a chance.

I don't pull the stick back. I think you misunderstood, I was just making a light hearted sarcastic post although my points were genuine. I can take off, my point was it is messy and overly difficult imo, it's fine for us in our virtual planes with a reset button. I'm just trying to picture those young German pilots trying this for the first time and if the physics in this module are correct... rather them than me! I have spent years on this forum being positive, I am just not enjoying the 190 so you'll have to let me have this one.. no offense intended. I'm back in the P-51D and loving it. The P-51 isn't easy to take off by any means, but at least it doesn't try overly hard to kill you, even if she will bite your head off for abusing her, and I can stay pretty much centered on the run way as you would expect to see in reality. When I get up in the 190 it is usually sideways or by the skin of my teeth. Again, glad you're enjoying it. I prefer the 109 anyway, maybe I'll give that one more of a chance.

I really don't understand this though. I took off on my first attempt in the Dora. It was messy, yes but I got into the air without damaging the aircraft.

I cannot tell you how many crashes I had back in the P-51D Beta before I managed to take off for the first time but there were a lot of them.

Now, I don't have any problem with the Mustang or the Dora. Difficulty seems to be roughly the same. Do they behave different? Yes. Is one harder to take off than the other? IMO no, I don't see a huge difference in difficulty.

I don't pull the stick back. I think you misunderstood, I was just making a light hearted sarcastic post although my points were genuine. I can take off, my point was it is messy and overly difficult imo, it's fine for us in our virtual planes with a reset button. I'm just trying to picture those young German pilots trying this for the first time and if the physics in this module are correct... rather them than me! I have spent years on this forum being positive, I am just not enjoying the 190 so you'll have to let me have this one.. no offense intended. I'm back in the P-51D and loving it. The P-51 isn't easy to take off by any means, but at least it doesn't try overly hard to kill you, even if she will bite your head off for abusing her, and I can stay pretty much centered on the run way as you would expect to see in reality. When I get up in the 190 it is usually sideways or by the skin of my teeth. Again, glad you're enjoying it. I prefer the 109 anyway, maybe I'll give that one more of a chance.

well, i dont want to force you to enjoy it, and i didnt take any of your posts as an offense!im glad you are able to take off with her...i just disagree that the 190 is any harder than the p51,...its different, but not harder in my view.

i prefer the 109 also, and cant wait for her,...but i expect her to be a bit more of a thing to tame :)

well, i dont want to force you to enjoy it, and i didnt take any of your posts as an offense!im glad you are able to take off with her...i just disagree that the 190 is any harder than the p51,...its different, but not harder in my view.

i prefer the 109 also, and cant wait for her,...but i expect her to be a bit more of a thing to tame :)

I suspect you're right about the 109, like I said, I've always liked that bird although I look forward to a nice MK:9 Spitfire to really give it a run for its money. I do think something is amiss with the 190 as it is currently however. I guess we'll find out soon if a patch comes along or not. Until then, mine will be sitting unused which is a shame.

Taking off in the Dora is frustrating until the moment you realize what you are doing wrong.

I had about 30 crashes while I always started carefully with not to much thrust, hoping to get a "feel" of the aircraft. That was wrong: you do not have rudder authority at low RPM. So once I realized that the forward vector was my friend and I needed overwhelming forward power (and propwash) fast, I just slammed the throttle forward and then I finally got rudder response and I could "feel" the aircraft. With the amount of power the engine gives you, you are airborne in no time.

It is immensely rewarding to master the take off in this bird.

And OK, somehow I will figure out how to land the thing ... I hope??? Maybe I should have tried that first :=)

The problem is between the seat and the stick and that can be taught through practice . . .

 

Try Yoyo's challenge and stop it when landing in less than 400m.

. . . yes, it's all about practice.

But where and how has YoYo demonstrated a 400 m landing roll?

It's not that I'm dubious about this landing performance, but I want to know the limits of a perfect Dora landing.

My best try was 480 m landing roll . . . without any headwind vector!

Remember: At the time when the Dora was built most of the German airfield were grass strips with an average lenght of 800 m only.

I suspect you're right about the 109, like I said, I've always liked that bird although I look forward to a nice MK:9 Spitfire to really give it a run for its money. I do think something is amiss with the 190 as it is currently however. I guess we'll find out soon if a patch comes along or not. Until then, mine will be sitting unused which is a shame.

yeah, if there really is something missing, or if there really was a bug, i also would like seeing it fixed...

its just that i cant see/feel anything which would indicate that something is wrong.and if there is no bug, then i would hate seeing the devs tune the flight model just to make it easier, as i enjoy the complexity,realism and challenge dcs planes provide.each on its own, with its own strengths and weaknesses.

luckily the devs already introduced features like auto-rudder and takeoff assistance or the easy flight mode, for people who really struggle or just dont enjoy the way it is.

I was looking around and found a pretty shocking video, this guy takes off in the FW 190 and he doesn't even die once. No violent roll or drama at all really despite being on a rough surface, just kind of glides up into the air. Sarcasm aside, the Dora is still the only module I don't enjoy, as much as I try too. Yes, It could be me being rubbish, but I find it hard to imagine the real thing is so difficult to take off in. This guy is no doubt an experienced airman. But those young, often inexperienced guys in the 40s would have destroyed more of there own aircraft than the RAF if it were so unforgiving I am sure...

 

I have my own suspicions about the stability of the 190 at low speeds because the smallest inputs will get her all squirly. However, regarding the video it's important to remember its an A series FW not the longer and differently powered Dora. Still, here's what I notice:

Takeoffs at 1:40, 10:00, 11:20

1. The elevator is raised, i.e. stick back. until speed is established when he lets it off.

2. In the external views although I se a little wing wobble I don't see excessive aileron, rudder or elevator action. I wish we could see what his hands are doing during takeoff and landing. There is some directional control down the runway, watch the canopy against the background, but not excessive and he seems to go into takeoff power very quickly.

3. The 11:20 takeoff is a touch and go - is he really trimmed back as far as we have to for the landing making it tricky to go into a touch and go? Is the landing trim required in DCS excessive?

Landings:

8:30, 10:55, 13:40.

I watch his upper right arm and in the very late finals he does appear to be working (the ailerons?) but not the elevators until he flares for the three pointer.

At no time does it look as if he is working as hard as I have to to keep it straight immediately after takeoff!

i would hate seeing the devs tune the flight model just to make it easier

Oh so would I, I would never want to see DCS simplified for the sake of it. I like a challenge and I love DCS for what it is... The P-51D was a challenge for quite a while until we learned how to tame it, the amount of threads about it's violent snap rolls etc are testament to that . I just genuinely believe the 190 isn't correct as it is, it can't be. Whether it is the lack of peripheral vision, or the extra senses we are missing out of vs reality I have no idea. But all modules have that problem, it is just part of the hobby, while DCS can be frustrating at times, the 190 is taking the cake during take off. Maybe it is perfect, but I suspect not based on what we can see in real videos etc. Maybe we will find out more soon, I don't think practice will make perfect as it stands.

At no time does it look as if he is working as hard as I have to to keep it straight immediately after takeoff!

This is my point, While take off is achievable, it seems overly dramatic currently.

I agree with DavidRed here. To me it really isn't more difficult than the Mustang and you don't need a lot of right stick to keep her straight if you didn't overcompensated with your rudder.

A few things to consider for those with problems and those who think that something is off:

#1: The Dora has more power than the Mustang AND is lighter!

#2: Only elevator trim can be adjusted by the pilot, trim tabs for rudder and ailerons are set on the ground for a specific speed and RPM range and cannot be adjusted during flight.

#3: The tail wheel is either locked or completely free which means that you need rudder authority asap - so set T/O power before you release brakes. In the Mustang it moves a little bit. Even with the stick pulled back.

#4: On the Dora you use take off flaps. If you ever forgot to retract flaps on the Mustang before take off you will notice a heavy left rolling tendency. It's worse than what happens in the Dora because if you forget them they are fully lowered.

#5: According to Yo-Yo, Erich Brunotte, a German WWII fighter pilot who flew the Dora, was able to take off and put her through some maneuvers w/o problems and even helped fix a little bug in EDs FM that went unnoticed until then. I'm pretty sure he'd have noticed glaring issues.

If there really is a bug it should be fixed but the only thing we have right now is some people who think something is off but no concrete evidence.

3. The 11:20 takeoff is a touch and go - is he really trimmed back as far as we have to for the landing making it tricky to go into a touch and go? Is the landing trim required in DCS excessive?

Just want to question this. I never, ever, trim the Fw190 for landing and don't think I've actually failed to land it in DCS (yes, even my first time was successful), yet I've seen people complain there's not enough trim.

Just want to question this. I never, ever, trim the Fw190 for landing and don't think I've actually failed to land it in DCS (yes, even my first time was successful), yet I've seen people complain there's not enough trim.

Interesting point Buzzles. I have full trim and some back stick on top of that to keep altitude or a reasonable descent at approach speeds (below 300kph). Perhaps it was not meant to be trimmed for landing but one thing is certain, a lot of up elevator is necessary to keep it from diving into the ground with gear and flaps down in the approach. You do not see that in the video but, again, that's an A model not a Dora. The amount of stick back necessary smacks of bad design - not very likely I'd have thought, especially from Kurt Tank.

So tell me please, without trimming do you find you need a lot of stick-back when approaching for a landing and at what speed do you approach and then touch down.

By the way I have no trouble landing it, it's just the way I have to land it that concerns me.

I agree with DavidRed here. To me it really isn't more difficult than the Mustang and you don't need a lot of right stick to keep her straight if you didn't overcompensated with your rudder.

 

A few things to consider for those with problems and those who think that something is off:

........................

#5: According to Yo-Yo, Erich Brunotte, a German WWII fighter pilot who flew the Dora, was able to take off and put her through some maneuvers w/o problems and even helped fix a little bug in EDs FM that went unnoticed until then. I'm pretty sure he'd have noticed glaring issues.

 

If there really is a bug it should be fixed but the only thing we have right now is some people who think something is off but no concrete evidence.

Is he available for lessons or has he the pilots notes? Just joking about the lessons.

True, all we can do is think it's odd.

Sorry - but take-off and landing is nothing but a bad joke.

This needs re-work.

Period.

Are you sure you didn't turn the arcade mode off by mistake and put it to simulation?

Taking off, flying and landing the FW-190 D9 is not in any way harder than doing so with the P-51D or with TF-51 at the same level of simulation. Try doing some takeoffs and landings with TF-51 and after you are good enough, switch to Dora.