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Old 06-19-2017, 01:19 AM   #221
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I thought the 'attacking them when they came into land' tactic came about not because they had the 'turn rate of an oil taker ' generally, but because they had short legs and the engines didn't respond well below a certain airspeed, so they were always heading for base, and once on approach were sitting ducks - which made them a better target than while they were at operating speed and altitude, because while there they were fairly safe from attack.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:26 AM   #222
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Just watched a documentary about this !

'Attacking them when they came into land' came about because the Me-262 engine could not be boosted to full power immediately or even quickly --- it needed to be done very gradually, otherwise bag things (tm) would happen -- fire, explosions, badabing badaboom. This meant that after they have slowed down for landing, if attacked they could not re-power up and fly off without definitely exploding into a ball of flame. So they took their chances with the bullets. Talk about a rock and a hard place.

Incidentally, the reason for this "feature" of the engine was lack of access to exotic metal alloys out which to build specific parts (e.g. turbine blades, exhaust nozzles?) that could withstand the high temperatures, like chromium (which was only produced by Turkey and was firmly in British hands). The Me-262 was forced to use steel, which needed to be treated very delicately, and even then required complete replacement after 10 flights.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:52 PM   #223
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The 262 was a dangerous machine that no pilot could ever master.

Bearfoot's spot on. The 262s revolutionary Junkers-built Jumo 004s were both the jet's gift and it's curse. The engines were as fragile as fine china because they were made from much lower grade materials due to mineral shortages. It's also documented that some of the 262's parts including engine internals, were manufactured by slave laborers in underground factories. As a result, many of the laborers would either sabotage parts, or, well, just construct them poorly.

Pilots had to be very careful with the 262's engines - particularly temperature and throttle movement. As for temperature, the blades inside the engine were unable to withstand the rigorous temperatures due to the poor quality of the metals, and would heat up and expand during flight at nearly full power settings. This did not become a problem until after the aircraft landed, when the blades would cool down, thus retracting and cracking. If this process was repeated many times at high temperatures, then the blades were known to shatter completely during flight, obviously causing catastrophic consequences for the poor engine. As for throttle movement, the engines would suffer flameouts if the throttle was moved too quickly, especially at high altitude. Obviously catastrophic for the 262 if he's being chased or is in the midst of an engagement.

The 262's engines had an absolutely horrible lifespan. A brand-new engine had a lifespan of just 28 hours, and refurbished engines were good for just another 10 or so hours between overhauls. An experienced pilot who's careful with the engines and aware of their limitations could potentially heighten the lifespan of the engines (and thus themselves!), but I generally hear that the engines were good for absolutely no longer than 35 hours.

The engines are one of the reasons the 262 fleet saw such limited operational capability in low numbers - many working jets had to have their engines cannibalized to keep other jets flying.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:30 PM   #224
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And also the pressure ratio of the engine is nothing, it takes a long time to speed up. Ramming air is really important to climb because of the extremely low pressure ratio of the engine, so getting some speed before climbing is really important.

I can imagine how difficult is to get some speed, especially at slower speeds and high altitudes. It's an easy target for P-51s.. Also in a dive, the compressibility is somewhat similar (P-51D and Me-262 AFAIK). The only way I can think about Me-262 being a success is keeping its energy, without that, you will die eventually, being the aircraft fault, or yours... I'm not fully aware of its problems but Kippy did a really good job saying a few of them.

Just to give you an idea of how terrible the engine is, the TF-34 GE-100A of the A-10 weighs a little bit more than 750kg, the Jumo 004B is 719kg! And it produces around 8kN, while the TF-34 is around 40, 41kN!

I know it's a stupid comparison, but that was just to give you an idea of how turbine engines evolved...

It's kinda funny though when players from a game which its name starts with the letter W, say Me-262 is an awesome machine and etc... I don't think they are fully aware of its problems!
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:29 PM   #225
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The 262 by all means is an awesome machine ; I'd legitimately give my left arm to fly one. It simply comes down to the fact that with the 262 you have to be absolutely very well aware of it's limitations and have the utmost respect for the machine. I see the 262 as a strange quantity, to be treated much like any dangerous substance. She has to be put in qualified hands and treated just right. If not, she will wreak havoc on the user. You have to have some level of respect and faith with any machine that you trust your life with - this goes for all aircraft. Heh, look at me - the kooky guy who respects airplanes like they are sentient beings.

The 262 simply had shortcomings in the engines that would be expected of any country under siege, unable to produce proper quality metal. The 262 was constructed hastily and poorly as a last ditch effort to perhaps win air superiority and drive off the allied bombers that ravaged German cities and infrastructure. (Of course this was after Hitler was informed that producing it as a bomber wasn't exactly the best idea, which.. he did anyway) If the 262 had the time to properly mature and have the kinks worked out, and to produce the aircraft with the proper quality, it would have been a very threatening machine to the allied air forces. However, the 262 is a perfect example of an initially disregarded and then rushed product; too little numbers and too late in the war to make a difference. The Luftwaffe lost most of it's experienced pilots before the 262 saw heavy use, and as such the pilots flying her were inexperienced and improperly trained due to the Luftwaffe trying to make up for mounting losses.

I believe the 262s characteristics with energy management and engine operation will make her the most challenging module in DCS to actually fly. I'm looking forward to this. The 262 will be the reason I get into the WW2 side of DCS.

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Old 06-20-2017, 07:33 PM   #226
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Yeah but I am talking about performance.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:48 PM   #227
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Ah. Performance wise, the 262 does take quite a long time to get up to the proper airspeed, and during that time she is very vulnerable. You won't see a 262 depart from a frontline base - they will generally takeoff behind the lines, thus allowing them time to build up airspeed and altitude to their advantage. The 262's required time to "wind up," if you will, is it's Achilles Heel, engine problems aside. However, if the 262 is allowed this time, it becomes a very scary machine. I don't really want to repeat what I said a few pages back in this thread, but put simply, If the 262 is engaging fighters that are dogfighting, the 262 controls the entire fight. They will use their high speed to slash in and out the furball rather than dogfight, tagging a target of opportunity every pass. Slash in, shoot one down, fly 4000 yards out, turn back in... rinse and repeat. If you don't remain vigilant of the enemy 262's position, chances are he will tag you in his pass for failing to maneuver evasively when he begins his slash into the fight. Due to their high speed, their trigger time is small and you don't exactly need to take billy-big-boy-steps to get out of their way during their pass. However, even with short trigger time, the guns are 30mm and fire Minengeschoß and HEI shells.. chances are, only one or two of them actually need to connect and the target is bust. Truthfully, if you remain vigilant of their position and when they run in, you should be able to evade rather easily and the 262 simply becomes little more than a minor inconvenience.

Any 262 pilot who chooses to dogfight rather than boom and zoom is choosing death. The 262 isn't exactly highly maneuverable, and should be an easy pick should the pilot throw his energy away. If you catch a 262 with his pants down at low speed, if he doesn't have altitude, he's not going to build speed in time to run away from you.

As for engaging bombers, the 262s will likely try to approach high and from the front, aiming for a diving pass on nose of the aircraft near the cockpit - the fastest way to remove a B-17 from flight... aim for the pilots and the controls of the bomber. Sometimes you will also see brave 262 pilots diving through the boxes aiming for the wings of bombers; big targets that often collapse when hit with 30mm shells.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:23 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfoot View Post
Just watched a documentary about this !
Incidentally, the reason for this "feature" of the engine was lack of access to exotic metal alloys out which to build specific parts (e.g. turbine blades, exhaust nozzles?) that could withstand the high temperatures, like chromium (which was only produced by Turkey and was firmly in British hands). The Me-262 was forced to use steel, which needed to be treated very delicately, and even then required complete replacement after 10 flights.
Not really, it could be fixed by changing the shape of the blades, but little did German experts know. Comming from research from late 1940's in Czechoslovakia - a bunch of engineers that has never seen a jet in their life fixed it in about a year.


As for turn rate - what matters is its terrible sustained turn. Not to mention that the speed was not really that high, acceleration - and now I am not accounting for the engine handling - was also low.

Slashing in and out won't really work - as you have to turn around at some point. And if I take the old IL-2 sim as a sort of a semi-reference, you get to around 2.5 G at 570 km/h for a sustained turn at sea level. Yes - that is both low airspeed and wide turning radius (someone can actually calculate how wide that would be). If it is going to be anything like that, you are in for one hell of a ride
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:39 PM   #229
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Koty, I can assure you that the 262 is not slow by any means. It will outrun nearly anything, the only obvious threat I remember were Typhoons and Tempests when they had altitude as they retained speed pretty well. A P-51D or 109K-4 simply will not catch it outside of a dive, and will not keep up with it for long in a dive regardless. 262's don't use sharp maneuvers in any circumstance, always maintaining high airspeed by keeping their turns to a very wide radius. Any 262 pilot worth his salt will refuse to allow the aircraft below 375 mp/h when the enemy is around. The priority of flying is stay alive and then fight. A smart 262 pilot will never give up airspeed for a turn, because that's prioritizing fighting over holding onto the thing that keeps them alive - airspeed.

Not to be rude, but.. 570 km/h is slow for a 262, but for prop driven aircraft? I think not.
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Old 06-24-2017, 09:41 AM   #230
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The Me 262 is basically four K-4s doing diving attacks at you all the time...
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