My two cents on F-16 Turn Rate and the EM Diagrams - Page 8 - ED Forums
 


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Old 08-09-2020, 02:46 PM   #71
Sandman1330
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My reply copied from the other, similar post:

Hey Low Blow,

But I would argue, as you and I discussed the other day, pulling the paddle is a bit of an artificial advantage, regardless of how one feels about the gamey aspect of it.

All the EM diagrams for the hornet, all the flight testing, and indeed all the SME input will be predicated on the 7.5G limit, as the paddle wasn’t pulled in real life BFM practice, and again all the EM charts use 7.5G as the limit.

Anything above 7.5G and we are into untested territory. Perhaps the real hornet truly would have outrated the viper at 9G, but there’s no way to substantiate this as there is no data on that regime of flight to verify. (I’m happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide said data)

It’s the same as the flaps down argument for the Tomcat. In game, until HB made changes, the tomcat in flaps down config (way above Vfe of course) would rate around like a beast. But again, no one could verify if it was accurate because there was no SME or flight test data on what was ultimately an unauthorized manoeuvre.

As you and I have shown, a realistically flown Hornet at the 7.5G limit can be outrated by a viper, albeit not massively.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman1330 View Post

But I would argue, as you and I discussed the other day, pulling the paddle is a bit of an artificial advantage, regardless of how one feels about the gamey aspect of it.

All the EM diagrams for the hornet, all the flight testing, and indeed all the SME input will be predicated on the 7.5G limit, as the paddle wasn’t pulled in real life BFM practice, and again all the EM charts use 7.5G as the limit.

Anything above 7.5G and we are into untested territory. Perhaps the real hornet truly would have outrated the viper at 9G, but there’s no way to substantiate this as there is no data on that regime of flight to verify. (I’m happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide said data)

It’s the same as the flaps down argument for the Tomcat. In game, until HB made changes, the tomcat in flaps down config (way above Vfe of course) would rate around like a beast. But again, no one could verify if it was accurate because there was no SME or flight test data on what was ultimately an unauthorized manoeuvre.
Hi sandman.
There were 9g tests with the legacy hornet. And at least swiss hornets do have a 9g-limit.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/789771
https://www.milavia.net/airshows/dis...display/#img/4

And there are charts for the f-18c showing a 9g limit.
http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.ph...ssion-analysis

Cheers
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:34 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Figaro9 View Post
Hi sandman.
There were 9g tests with the legacy hornet. And at least swiss hornets do have a 9g-limit.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/789771
https://www.milavia.net/airshows/dis...display/#img/4

And there are charts for the f-18c showing a 9g limit.
http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.ph...ssion-analysis

Cheers
Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.
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Old 08-11-2020, 04:29 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman1330 View Post
Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.
We can actually find out by simply looking at the F-16 performance charts and see which one matches the figures on that diagram. Specifically, at what altitude and configuration does the F-16C achieve a peak of 3.2 & 4 G's sustained, and 8.2 & 9 G instantaneous.

The diagram that most closely matches this turns out to be the one for 26,000 lbs DI = 50 @ 30,000 ft, where the F-16 hits 3.2 G sustained at @ M 0.8 and 4 G sustained @ M 1.4, where'as 8.2 G instantaneous is hit @ M 1.18 and 9 G @ M 1.73.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:05 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Sandman1330 View Post
Wow, that’s super interesting, thanks for the info! I bet the Swiss hornet with those new G limits was a beast. Did they make any changes to airframes or systems to beef up the G tolerance?

It’s too bad those charts have no numbers though. It would be cool if we could compare the Hornets 9g performance in game to real life test data. Unfortunately without the numbers we are still guessing on its turn performance vs the Viper while using the paddle.
Yes, the structure is reinforced and there are changes in the software. Lifetime is shorter too.
I agree with hb, it is probably 30kft. If you search that homepage, you will even find the figures on the axes.
The above ALR chart, shows for Hornet epe, most probably in gao config (60% fuel, 2a9+2a120, 33325lbs) bstr= ~7.4dgs.
My Dcs F18 str test in that config, 58%fuel, 33325lbs = 7.3dgs
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:38 PM   #76
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So, the 9g Hornet upgrades are very interesting. Does it still have the same acceleration performance? or perhaps slightly less since it required structural upgrades which increase weight?

At any rate here's something I found this morning, very insightful. Written by "Mover" C.W. Lemoine, his series of articles called Hornet vs Viper. He's one of the guys who's flown both and his take on both. Regarding performance in the AA arena - From part 4:

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/horn...per-part-four/


"I like to refer to the Hornet as a “Gentleman’s Dogfighter.” It’s limited to 7.5Gs, which is a far cry from the Viper’s 9 (Sometimes more with the Block 30’s analog flight control system that will give you up to 9.3 or more if you overshoot the limiter). Dogfighting with the Hornet requires finesse and an above average ability to visualize the jet in three dimensions and manage your energy state. It is highly maneuverable, with the ability to point the nose virtually anywhere. It is a lot of fun to fight, but hard to master against a similar aircraft.
The downside to the Hornet is its power limitation. It is severely underpowered, and although you can get slow and threaten other aircraft with the nose, doing so can leave you without follow-on options. It is very unforgiving of pilots who ham-fist and bleed away all their energy."

"The Viper is much harder on your body. Although the ATAGS G-suit has made significant groundwork in reducing the effects of 9Gs, your 20lb head still puts 180 lbs of force on your neck while fighting. With no pylons or external fuel tanks, the F-16 in full afterburner can hold 9Gs, and even accelerate while pulling 9Gs at lower altitudes. This requires throttle modulation to stay in the appropriate airspeed band to maximize turn rate and minimize turn radius. There’s nothing worse than to be pulling 9Gs, accelerating, and losing because you’re getting too fast."

This last quote is currently not a problem in the DCS Viper! LOL I suppose it would be nice if it were! Let's get that performance tuned!

Last quote, very intriguing.

"So head to head, who wins? It depends on the type of fight.
A good Hornet pilot will take the fight downhill, try to get slow, and use his superior maneuverability to bleed the Viper down into his wheelhouse – a close-in knife fight at slow speed. If he tries to take the fight uphill or flat, the F-16’s superior rate and thrust to weight ratio will prevail.
Given a choice head to head, I would probably choose the F-16. Although I really love fighting in the Hornet against other Hornets, there is no worse feeling than being bled down on energy and out of options. I fought several F/A-18Cs, F/A-18E/Fs, and CF-18s when I flew the F-16, and I never lost. Aside from the F-22, I really don’t think there’s a better dogfighting aircraft out there. A lot of thrust is good, more is better. A clean F-16 is just a rocket ship. That’s just personal preference, of course. Others who have flown both may have vastly differing opinions.
Well, that concludes my comparison of the Hornet vs Viper. Hope you’ve enjoyed it. Take my opinions for what they’re worth – just one fighter pilot’s opinion of two very similar jets. The F-16 was my first love, so I’m obviously a bit biased, but I think they’re both great aircraft. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to fly them both."

I like how he does say, that others who've flown both may have different opinions. Wisdom from someone who understands that one experience is not all there is. Really good articles. Recommend reading them if you haven't.
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Last edited by 000rick000; 08-11-2020 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:42 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 000rick000 View Post
So, the 9g Hornet upgrades are very interesting. Does it still have the same acceleration performance? or perhaps slightly less since it required structural upgrades which increase weight?

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/horn...per-part-four/

This last quote is currently not a problem in the DCS Viper! LOL I suppose it would be nice if it were! Let's get that performance tuned!

I like how he does say, that others who've flown both may have different opinions. Wisdom from someone who understands that one experience is not all there is. Really good articles. Recommend reading them if you haven't.
Hard to tell about weight growth due the reinforced structure since every lot is different...
https://www.vtg.admin.ch/en/einsatzm...18-hornet.html
According departure weight clean in above link she is even lighter than the dcs f-18... (Dcs: 36445lbs, linked specs for max to-weight clean: 35’500lbs).

Great articles.

Training rules do not allow dogfights below hard deck (5000ft, 10000ft...) in rw. In the typical dogfight piece of skies between 10kft and 20kft even the latest and probably heaviest usaf f16 block 50 seems to have a bstr advantage over the f18.

Using the haf suppl. charts, correcting for gw-difference, we can compare the b50 bstr to the gao numbers for the f18epe (12.3 dgs: 15kft, 33325lbs, 58% fuel, 2a9+2a120). I get something between 13.1dgs (di=0, 24350lbs, 58%f)and 11.8dgs (di=50, 26740lbs). Interpolated for di20 I would expect best str ~ 12.6 dgs for the b50 (25660lbs).
At that altitude, that fuel and wp load, the b50 has probably an adv of~ 0.3dgs if the charts, figures, dcs weights and my read outs are correct...
That’s for the heart of the training area heights...

Checking for sea level, where many simmers like to fight, the picture looks different: gao for epe: 19.2 dgs, 33325lbs, 2a9+2a120, 58% fuel.
For the b 50 I get something between 19.2 (di=0, 24’350lbs, 58%fuel) and 17.9 (di=50, 26740lbs, 58%fuel). Iteration for di20, 25660lbs and I would expect best str to be ~ 18.7dgs for the b50.
So the epe seems to have an adv. of ~ 0.5dgs with those specifications at sl, even if she stays within the 7.5 g limit.

And since dcs f16 burns internal fuel faster on ab than the dcs f18 does, she starts the fight with more fuel (weight) on airquake servers. Makes it all worse.

But the b50 has an huge acceleration, speed and climb advantage (-30% from break release to m1.4 @ 50kft)

Ps: dcs f-16 does accelerate in a 9g turn at sea level di=50, 26’000lbs above m0.8. That’s spot on.

Last edited by Figaro9; 08-12-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:06 PM   #78
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what about.. all planes fly wrong in general, and the sim gives advantage to the planes that fights with higher aoa, maybe they just don't lose enough speed
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:17 PM   #79
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No, it is EASY to get a Hornet under 100kt even at low altitude in AB.
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Old 08-13-2020, 04:57 AM   #80
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Figaro, thanks for doing that comparative work, that is awesome.

Really appreciate everyone's thought process on this. I'm also glad to see a real world viper guy on here mention the difficulty of using certain gameplans because of Gloc limitations.

Here's hoping we get some real feedback from ED on this upcoming patch. I hope the mature and thoughtful nature of this thread has been helpful to the software engineers.

Press!

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