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Allied plane choices ?


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I only fly the Luftwaffe aircraft at the moment - mostly because I spent a couple of years only flying Allied in another sim, and it was time for a change.

 

I think I'm ready for an Allied one again now though.

 

What are the pros and cons of the ones on offer ? I have tried out the TF-51 because it's free, and I do like the docile ground handling, but thats about the extent of my knowledge as to how these planes are in DCS

You'll have to work quite hard to sell me the P-47, I don't normally do early access, but everything else is on the table, including that funny little Soviet thing...

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Not much to think, it's P-51 or Spitfire. If you don't know how to fly them better to start with the P-51, easier to master (it's heavier and not exactly the same as TF). The Spitfire is a great aircraft, but trickier in ground handling and landings.

 

 

 

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Out of the two I'd go with the P-51, I spent a load of time with the Spitfire already in another sim. The TF 51 flies nicely, but the engine seems a bit easy to mismanage.

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Modules owned:- Bachem Natter, Cessna 150, Project Pluto, Sopwith Snipe

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Out of the two I'd go with the P-51, I spent a load of time with the Spitfire already in another sim. The TF 51 flies nicely, but the engine seems a bit easy to mismanage.

 

If you stay with engine limitation chart you should be good.

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If you stay with engine limitation chart you should be good.

 

Yep, I know - it's not the plane, it's me. The Luftwaffe aircraft make you lazy when it comes to power settings, revs and heat management.

 

I just went with the P-51

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Modules owned:- Bachem Natter, Cessna 150, Project Pluto, Sopwith Snipe

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Yep, I know - it's not the plane, it's me. The Luftwaffe aircraft make you lazy when it comes to power settings, revs and heat management.

 

I just went with the P-51

 

The planeset is a de facto mismatch at the moment, with a big advantage for the Luftwaffe. The BF 109 is one of my favorite fighters, but I call 'em as I see 'em.

 

Good choice on the P-51.

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My belief you could not go wrong with either one.

There are 2 categories of fighter pilots: those who have performed, and those who someday will perform, a magnificent defensive break turn toward a bug on the canopy. Robert Shaw

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The planeset is a de facto mismatch at the moment, with a big advantage for the Luftwaffe. The BF 109 is one of my favorite fighters, but I call 'em as I see 'em.

 

Good choice on the P-51.

 

I disagree. The plane set is both historical and about as balanced as you can get. The spitfire can easily take on the all the German planes. The P51D is an even match vs the Dora(maybe a little bit better depending on recent changes) and completely outclasses the Anton. The 109K4 has the advantage over the P51D in a 1v1 but in a group the P51D is just as good. And a P51D paired with a spitfire is a formidable combination.

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I disagree. The plane set is both historical and about as balanced as you can get. The spitfire can easily take on the all the German planes. The P51D is an even match vs the Dora(maybe a little bit better depending on recent changes) and completely outclasses the Anton. The 109K4 has the advantage over the P51D in a 1v1 but in a group the P51D is just as good. And a P51D paired with a spitfire is a formidable combination.

 

I definitely agree with you.

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It is not historical, not in terms of the campaign/maps and aircraft currently available. It would be nice to have a late G6 to go with the Anton and a Spitfire Mk. XIV or a Tempest (Wishful thinking it seems).

 

You say a Spitfire and P-51 flying together is a formidable combination and I agree. However is that historical? For the most part the P-51 were busy escorting the bombers at altitude. They were eventually allowed to attack the luftwaffe away from the lumbering bmbers however this was presumably deeper into the territory than the spitfires could ever hope to manage. In all the books I have read from pilots on both sides I don't recall hearing of the luftwaffe being engaged by P-51 and Spitfires at the same time, not to say it didn't happen... Just they weren't used in conjunction, certainly not the way you describe.

 

The few times I recall reading about the American and RAF coming together was when one accidentally jumped on the other. I admit that I have read little about the P-51 in service with the RAF, perhaps RAF Spitfire and Mustang did work hand in hand... But that seems foolish given the fantastic range that the mustang could achieve.


Edited by Krupi

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I disagree. The plane set is both historical and about as balanced as you can get. The spitfire can easily take on the all the German planes. The P51D is an even match vs the Dora(maybe a little bit better depending on recent changes) and completely outclasses the Anton. The 109K4 has the advantage over the P51D in a 1v1 but in a group the P51D is just as good. And a P51D paired with a spitfire is a formidable combination.

 

 

I don't entirely agree. Some of the plane set is historical. The Fw-190D-9 we have is from 1945 but is essentially the same as the first one off the assembly line, I don't think the gyro sight is any real advantage in that plane. The Bf-109K-4 is late 1944 to the end of the war, so contemporary to the Fw-190.

I am not a Mustang or Thunderbolt expert but the P-51D-25 we have appears to have arrived at operational units in Dec 1944 and was fitted in the field with a K-14 gun sight maybe Feb 45. The P-47D-30 we have now is as it would have appeared on VE Day and the P-47D-30 variant we are going to get sounds like a it will be in the configuration that it would have arrived at an operational unit in Dec 44. So for Feb 45 to VE Day we have a historical match-up.

As for the P-51D-30 it never served in Europe, it was a PTO variant and I can find no evidence that the P-47D-40 arrived in Europe before VE Day. I have found much evidence of it in the Army of Occupation in Germany post VE Day and many photos of Thunderbolts claiming to be P-47D-40 but are actually D-25, D-28 and D-30.

The upcoming Mosquito FB Mk.VI was introduced in 1942 and served to the end of the war in Europe so it would be historically appropriate but I am not a Mosquito expert but might become one once this arrives. Also not really intended to engage Fw-190 or Bf-109 though they could had their own.

The Polikarpov I-16 has no historical match-up at the moment but who knows.

The F-4U-1 Corsair that is coming has no historical match-up now or on the horizon but will have an AI opponent.

Now, I do know something about Hurricanes and Spitfires The Spitfire Mk IX was introduced in 1942 to counter the Fw-190 and our Spitfire represents an aircraft that was built in March 1943. I have looked at aircraft histories and can find no Spitfire Mk IX built in March 1943 that was still on operations in 1945. In fact it would most likely have been out of front line service by the time our Fw-190A-8 arrived and the appropriate historical match-up would be a Fw-190A-4 or A-5 or a Bf-109G-6. The service life at a front line unit appears to be measured in weeks and months. A typical Spitfire Mk IX that would have flown over Normandy would have had at the minimum a Gyro Mk II Gunsight and aerodynamic improvements and a ~50% chance that it would be a Mk.IXe with .50 cal replacing the .303.

The Mk IX Spitfire that would have been a historical match-up for the aircraft mentioned in the first paragraph would have had aerodynamic and performance improvements in addition to the better gunsight and armament and possibly a bubble canopy or a Mk XIV.

As for balanced, it is not, nor should it be.

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I disagree. The plane set is both historical and about as balanced as you can get. The spitfire can easily take on the all the German planes. The P51D is an even match vs the Dora(maybe a little bit better depending on recent changes) and completely outclasses the Anton. The 109K4 has the advantage over the P51D in a 1v1 but in a group the P51D is just as good. And a P51D paired with a spitfire is a formidable combination.

 

The last remark is puzzling, because you can equally say the same of the 190D-9 and 109K-4 paired together. In my opinion the Spitfire Mk IX is too slow to be useful against someone who isn't stupid, but I recognize the subjectivity of that.

 

Now...what isn't subjective:

 

1) The 190D-9 and 109K-4 are anachronisms for both WW2 maps we have

2) The Spitfire Mk IX we have is dated (1943?)

3) The P-51D still doesn't have its 72" Hg

4) Both the Spit and Mustang have finicky engines, P-51D WEP is gambling

5) Only an idiot can overheat a 190D-9 or 109K-4

 

Now, the 190A-8 is a good addition to the game (I would have prefered a 109G-6), and I'm reserving judgement on the P-47 until it is more fleshed out, but.... Every kind of historical deviation we've seen has been in favor of the German planes, and the technical issues with engines have been, too.

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Now, the 190A-8 is a good addition to the game (I would have prefered a 109G-6), and I'm reserving judgement on the P-47 until it is more fleshed out, but.... Every kind of historical deviation we've seen has been in favor of the German planes, and the technical issues with engines have been, too.

 

aaiz4Ss.gif

 

I disagree with that, there are issues on both sides, hopefully the new DM will remove some of these.


Edited by Krupi

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Now...what isn't subjective:

 

1) The 190D-9 and 109K-4 are anachronisms for both WW2 maps we have

2) The Spitfire Mk IX we have is dated (1943?)

3) The P-51D still doesn't have its 72" Hg

4) Both the Spit and Mustang have finicky engines, P-51D WEP is gambling

5) Only an idiot can overheat a 190D-9 or 109K-4

 

That sums it up nicely.

 

It would have been nice to have the IXe, I still don't understand why they didn't go for this from the start.

 

I hope that the 109 G6 (AS) or perhaps a G10/G14 will come at some point, which ever makes more sense for our maps.

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The last remark is puzzling, because you can equally say the same of the 190D-9 and 109K-4 paired together. In my opinion the Spitfire Mk IX is too slow to be useful against someone who isn't stupid, but I recognize the subjectivity of that.

 

Now...what isn't subjective:

 

1) The 190D-9 and 109K-4 are anachronisms for both WW2 maps we have

2) The Spitfire Mk IX we have is dated (1943?)

3) The P-51D still doesn't have its 72" Hg

4) Both the Spit and Mustang have finicky engines, P-51D WEP is gambling

5) Only an idiot can overheat a 190D-9 or 109K-4

 

Now, the 190A-8 is a good addition to the game (I would have prefered a 109G-6), and I'm reserving judgement on the P-47 until it is more fleshed out, but.... Every kind of historical deviation we've seen has been in favor of the German planes, and the technical issues with engines have been, too.

 

The FW190D does not bring anything to the table that the 109K4 can't do. The strength of both the german planes is speed and climb rate. It does not make that much of a difference.

 

But the P51Ds strength is its excellent high speed performance. While the spitfire brings its climb rate and superior turning capability. Its very difficult to take advantage of the 109s better low speed manueverabilty vs the P51D when there is a spitfire around.

 

Maybe we have a 1943 spit 9 when we should have a 1944 spit 9. Fair enough. That should be fixed.

 

The FW190D has not been reliable at all. It has suffered from way worse engine bugs then the P51D ever has. It got instant engine failure when recieving any damage from the spitfire. It then had a WEP that would destroy the engine if used and was not fixed for years. That said bugs are irrelevant, all the WW2 planes have suffered and do suffer from them. I agree though, there are many bugs that seriously need to be fixed.


Edited by Snapage
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The Spitfire IXc we have is a 1944 variant, save perhaps the gunsight, the wobble pump fuel pressurisation and an automated RPM governor.

 

None of these elements would provide an increase in performance numbers.

 

The IXe, whilst in some units from mid-44 and starting to increase in numbers, did so slowly and was not the prevalent Spitfire IX armament layout till 1945.

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The Spitfire IXc we have is a 1944 variant, save perhaps the gunsight, the wobble pump fuel pressurisation and an automated RPM governor.

 

 

I don't think that's what people mean when they refer to the IX LF (Merlin 66) we have as being a "1943" variant. The date that the very first one entered service is what people are referring to, I think.

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I don't think that's what people mean when they refer to the IX LF (Merlin 66) we have as being a "1943" variant. The date that the very first one entered service is what people are referring to, I think.

 

I agree completely Phil, just some are under the misapprehension that much changed between a '43 and '44 LF.IXc

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I hope that the 109 G6 (AS) or perhaps a G10/G14 will come at some point, which ever makes more sense for our maps.

 

A baseline G-6 with DB606a, probably a Galland hood, maybe a tall tail, and the option for MW50 is by default the best representation for what the bulk of the Jagdwaffe were flying over Normandy in mid 1944, and without MW50 is suitable for late '43, early '44 scenarios on the Channel Map.

 

The A/S was over Normandy but only after the start of the invasion when those Jadgruppen so equipped were transferred from their Defence of the Reich duties to the Normandy Front and ultimately represented less than 1/3rd of the Bf 109 units that took part. Prior to that I doubt many got further West than the Holland/Belgium border so suitably for the Channel map is a bit thin.

 

The G-10 is nowhere to be seen in this scenario, and chronologically fits with the K-4 as a late '44 aircraft.

 

The G-14 in July I suspect is something of a non-entity. Firstly, most of the Jagdgruppe had been fairly brutalized by even late June and getting supplied new aircraft when they suffered airfield moves every other day - an exaggeration, to be sure, but not without some evidence of occurrences - and with their supply situation for even spares and consumables in disarray it would seem optimistic at best (if not downright ridiculous) to assume that every Bf 109 unit in theatre was suddenly re-equipped with G-14s from 00:01 hours on the 1st of July.

 

What is more likely is that spare aircraft would have been flown in piecemeal and suffering the attention of roving Allied P-51, P-47 and P-38 patrols en route. Those that make the gauntlet find they get sent to the wrong airstrip. Whilst trying to find the actual location it is supposed to be delivered the airstrip get's hit by some 9th AF/2nd TAF mediums or wholeheartedly strafed by more P-51s/P-47s/P-38s and the airframe made u/s if not destroyed. That was likely to happen even if they did find the right field!

 

This was the experience of the Jagdgruppen in Normandy, harried on the ground, and outnumbered when they did get in the air.

 

However, some would have got through and survived a night in theatre. Ergo, we may have seen G-6 units with the odd G-14.

 

From what little evidence there is it appears more likely that the G-14s start arriving in units when they withdraw from the Normandy front to revitalise. I'm sure some of these units went back to the French front in the west sometime later but whether it was to take part in operations over Normandy as we have now, I don't know.

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I think what people are doing is making comparisons to the machines which DID enter service in 1944/ late 44.

 

Some are. But some seem to think they've got a nerfed plane somehow cos it's "1943". And that comes down to Top Trumps/War Thunder BR ethos yet again, instead of "did these types historically oppose each other at the performance levels modelled in DCS?", with the further consideration coming in the form of "are these appropriate for the map(s) we have".

 

The answer to the first question with the Spitfire LF.IXc is yes to all. The second in 2 out of the 3 is resoundingly, no.

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dont even use historicity as a crutch just learn to fight holy moly

abuse the things you can do that the enemy cant simple as

 

imagine if propfighters had the this loser mentality when they first met 262s on the field

you're not supposed to bring jets waaaaahhh

m--m-m-muh balance


Edited by probad
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dont even use historicity as a crutch just learn to fight holy moly

abuse the things you can do that the enemy cant simple as

 

imagine if propfighters had the this loser mentality when they first met 262s on the field

you're not supposed to bring jets waaaaahhh

m--m-m-muh balance

 

ah you must fly the i16 in multiplayer then

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