zcrazyx Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Yeah, almost, but it stops being funny when you realise they really believe what they say :doh:. Mates, why not just WAIT until you can test yourself before complaining :thumbup: . I mean, we all know you two will complain anyway, but at least we get a break until we actually have the DM to talk about… :music_whistling: S! all of this talk with the 30mm damage output and im just here wondering how the mosquito will react to damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) Noticed I didn't address this btw: PS' date=' yes, that was severe damage on that aircraft, and the event of hitting something that could rip off that amount of the wing to take it almost to the gear, and then keep it under control, and get it home is an amazing feat, and sort of sad to downplay that at all. I mean you can look at that picture and see what you think, but you don't know what was done to that plane structurally or what other damaged that cause in that event, it wasn't taken off with a laser, it was taken off with a chimney.[/quote'] The damage is not severe in the sense that the wing is largely intact, only the tip of the wing is gone, heck the majority of the aileron is still there. Does that mean it was easy to nurse home? Or that it wasn't a potentially fatal situation at the moment it happened? No, I didn't ever claim that. I just don't understand why you even posted that picture (in addition to the other one which seems to show a 3.7cm Flak hit from below) as a response to me saying a Spitfire wouldn't come home from the type of damage depicted here: To me your post just seems like a "oh yeah, well you're wrong because look at this" from outta nowhere. Edited July 14, 2020 by Hummingbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) Mates, why not just WAIT until you can test yourself before complaining :thumbup: True, and do you know what is also true? That no'one was actually complaining. But since I already highlighted that a few times you ofcourse already know that, so I probably don't need to post this advice?: Guys, remember to read each others posts before you accuse anyone of anything :thumbup: Edited July 14, 2020 by Hummingbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Zach Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) The damage to the Spitfire there, the only one I can see is Fig. 1 and maybe Fig. 5 if that's a wing there..not completely sure what I'm looking at there, thought a wing but the leading edge looks off in a not-damage way. For Fig1, if the Spit pilot does nothing and pulls the least amount of G he can and doesn't slow down to increase AoA, that looks like it'd take him home for a fast belly landing. So still, for an extremity to be severed completely won't happen often if a 30mm is guesstimatedly plinked at a Spitfire. Tail hits would probably do it. But a wing, it doesn't look so. Fig.4 would be the case where the wing would be torn off, by the looks of it, Fig.6 looks like a loss by the sheer amount of lift lost and drag gained. Just nitpicking the photos there. Tl;dr a wing to be blown off ala 190's ammo storage style shouldn't happen in the new DM very often with the 30mm. That'd have to be really lucky (or unlucky for the Spit), or be something like a HUGE deflection shot like 60 or 70deg. However normally, from a 6 shot, the structure will be either severely weakened to the point that the pilot will immediately leave the fight and then bail nearby a friendly field Or the aerodynamic penalty is so great that the aircraft may lose control, if barely manage to hang on, and that's IF the control connections are still there. This is just what I'm gathering from your pics Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Edited July 14, 2020 by Magic Zach Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8 Maps: Normandy, Nevada [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zcrazyx Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) other thing people are not taking into account is how close they did the test, the 108 was a notoriously low velicity cannon when compared to others, in the air the distance and speed difference between aircraft will have an effect, substancial velocity will be lost quickly due to distance. edit: also do we know the angle at which they shot at during the test? the pic with fusalage damaged looks like a straight side on shot and not a rear shot through the tail. Edited July 14, 2020 by zcrazyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 edit: also do we know the angle at which they shot at during the test? the pic with fusalage damaged looks like a straight side on shot and not a rear shot through the tail. We do, it was 30 deg from the back, the same angle at which it was filmed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted July 14, 2020 ED Team Share Posted July 14, 2020 Doesn't look like it was shot at the same angle it was filmed? Is that a piece of the plane flying off to the left? Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Zach Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Gonna agree there, looks like it came in from the right, not the left where the camera is. Which makes sense from a filming perspective, you get a better view of the damage at a perpendicular angle to the shot. Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8 Maps: Normandy, Nevada [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) Doesn't look like it was shot at the same angle it was filmed? Is that a piece of the plane flying off to the left? Rechecked the report and it states directly from behind with 10 deg rotation. (I misremembered it as 30 deg it seems) "Shooting conditions: The wings were attacked directly from behind, and the fuselage at an angle of rotation of 10 ° from this position." This looks like it might be the entry hole?: Here's a couple pictures from the tests to see if the shells would skip at an acute angle on the wings, but the shells just pierced the thin skin and detonated inside: Edited July 14, 2020 by Hummingbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 14, 2020 Author Share Posted July 14, 2020 The damage to the Spitfire there, the only one I can see is Fig. 1 and maybe Fig. 5 if that's a wing there..not completely sure what I'm looking at there, thought a wing but the leading edge looks off in a not-damage way. For Fig1, if the Spit pilot does nothing and pulls the least amount of G he can and doesn't slow down to increase AoA, that looks like it'd take him home for a fast belly landing. So still, for an extremity to be severed completely won't happen often if a 30mm is guesstimatedly plinked at a Spitfire. Tail hits would probably do it. But a wing, it doesn't look so. Fig.4 would be the case where the wing would be torn off, by the looks of it, Fig.6 looks like a loss by the sheer amount of lift lost and drag gained. Just nitpicking the photos there. Tl;dr a wing to be blown off ala 190's ammo storage style shouldn't happen in the new DM very often with the 30mm. That'd have to be really lucky (or unlucky for the Spit), or be something like a HUGE deflection shot like 60 or 70deg. However normally, from a 6 shot, the structure will be either severely weakened to the point that the pilot will immediately leave the fight and then bail nearby a friendly field Or the aerodynamic penalty is so great that the aircraft may lose control, if barely manage to hang on, and that's IF the control connections are still there. This is just what I'm gathering from your pics Fig.1 & 5 were judged as "Probably lethal structurally & aerodynamically; lethal by loss of control" Here are some interesting extra details about Fig.5 (fragments entering cockpit): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Zach Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Ingame, that would take a pilot home, if he hasn't died. The worst part of that is the loss of aileron control, which if hit when the plane is level, wouldn't be an issue as rudder control can step in for the loss of aileron control. You'll have to side slip a lot though to make up for the drag and loss of lift. The worst thing I see there other than the loss of aileron control is the frag entering the cockpit. In the new DM that could result in pilot death or injury. And from pictures I've seen Nine post, a close impact like that could result in a concussion to the pilot as well. I think that when they say "lethal" they might be a bit optimistic. The environment of real pilots are a lot different from that of someone safe and clear-headed behind a screen. Someone irl who might lose aileron control might go "screw this" and jump, while us simmers without our life on the line would calmly react to keep our plane in the air. Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8 Maps: Normandy, Nevada [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 other thing people are not taking into account is how close they did the test, the 108 was a notoriously low velicity cannon when compared to others, in the air the distance and speed difference between aircraft will have an effect, substancial velocity will be lost quickly due to distance. edit: also do we know the angle at which they shot at during the test? the pic with fusalage damaged looks like a straight side on shot and not a rear shot through the tail. Low velocity will help HE round to detonate in time, Discussion is about damage done not how hard is to hit something with it. Anyway lots of aerial kills were done from surprise attacks,not only hard dog fights. System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Ingame, that would take a pilot home, if he hasn't died. The worst part of that is the loss of aileron control, which if hit when the plane is level, wouldn't be an issue as rudder control can step in for the loss of aileron control. You'll have to side slip a lot though to make up for the drag and loss of lift. Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk This damage is not simple thing. We can see that wing tip get twisted this may induce rolling tendency to level that it would be not possible to control. We do not know, but when army specialists says that this damage is lethal, i would not argue with that. System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Who wants to see clear difference between 7.7mm hit and 30mm hit ? System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al-Azraq Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Why are you freaking out guys? Even on the current DM I cut in half P-47 and Spifires with the 30 mm without any issue. You are creating a drama from nothing. i7 12700KF | MSI Z690 A-PRO | Corsair Vengeance 2x16 gb @ 3200 Mhz | RTX 3070 Ti FE | Acer XB271HU 1440P 144HZ | Virpil T-50 CM throttle | Virpil WarBRD Base + MongoosT-50 CM2 Grip | MFG Crosswind | TrackIR 5 | HP Reverb G2 Bf 109 K-4 | Fw 190 A-8 | Spitfire LF Mk. IX | P-51D | Fw 190 D-9 | P-47D | Mosquito FB VI | F/A 18C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | MiG-15bis | MiG-21bis | M-2000C | A-10C | AJS-37 Viggen | UH-1H | Ka-50 | Mi-24P | C-101 | Flaming Cliffs 3 Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | The Channel | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Zach Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) This damage is not simple thing. We can see that wing tip get twisted this may induce rolling tendency to level that it would be not possible to control. We do not know, but when army specialists says that this damage is lethal, i would not argue with that.Figure 4 is twisted I will challenge the lethality claim though. To the pilot? No. Plane? Maybe. Probable is right, it could have taken the plane out in one go, but with that damage the plane would likely be able to struggle back to base and the pilot would bail. I see a bit of that term up to individual interpretation, as it could be used to say the damage is so severe that you're better off jumping, or won't go far on it to make it 60 miles back over friendly lines, or the plane wouldn't be maneuverable any more without causing further damage...thus a sitting duck. Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Edited July 15, 2020 by Magic Zach Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8 Maps: Normandy, Nevada [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) Really you're arguing against real world findings here, not me. So if you don't believe the British, German & US conclusions in regards to the average effect of Mk108 hit then just say so. I just hope the devs don't share that view. F14, F15, F16 & F18.. What is common across these aircraft a 20mm. America seems to think a 20mm is sufficient. No one here thinks that the 30mm is going to be anything other than deadly... Just not necessarily all the time. Edited July 15, 2020 by Krupi Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 F14, F15, F16 & F18.. What is common across these aircraft a 20mm. America seems to think a 20mm is sufficient. No one here thinks that the 30mm is going to be anything other than deadly... Just not necessarily all the time. Not sure why you even found that comment necessary? Yes a 20mm that shoots at 6000 rpm is certainly sufficient. Not sure what that has to do with the effect from a 30mm HE(M) shell hit though though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted July 15, 2020 Author Share Posted July 15, 2020 Figure 4 is twisted I will challenge the lethality claim though. To the pilot? No. Plane? Maybe. Probable is right, it could have taken the plane out in one go, but with that damage the plane would likely be able to struggle back to base and the pilot would bail. I see a bit of that term up to individual interpretation, as it could be used to say the damage is so severe that you're better off jumping, or won't go far on it to make it 60 miles back over friendly lines, or the plane wouldn't be maneuverable any more without causing further damage...thus a sitting duck. Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Figure 4 was deemed immediately lethal due to structural failure. The spar is completely severed, hence that part of the wing is coming off right away in flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Zach Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Figure 4 was deemed immediately lethal due to structural failure. The spar is completely severed, hence that part of the wing is coming off right away in flight.correct Sent from my SM-A715F using Tapatalk Hardware: T-16000M Pack, Saitek 3 Throttle Quadrant, Homemade 32-function Leo Bodnar Button Box, MFG Crosswind Pedals Oculus Rift S System Specs: MSI MPG X570 GAMING PLUS, GTX 1070 SC2, AMD RX3700, 32GB DDR4-3200, Samsung 860 EVO, Samsung 970 EVO 250GB Modules: Ka-50, Mi-8MTV2, FC3, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-5E, P-51D, Spitfire Mk LF Mk. IXc, Bf-109K-4, Fw-190A-8 Maps: Normandy, Nevada [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grafspee Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 FIG.3A is it lethal or not quite yet? System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Ti's but a scratch! Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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