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3cm Mk108 in new dmg model


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Just wondering wether we will see a marked (as in significant) increase damage dealt by 3cm Mk108 hits once the new dmg model hits? Asking because atm the Mk108 is extremely anemic, infact I've managed to pour double digits into enemy fighters and they kept flying.

 

 

Meanwhile in reality:

V8Ar1j9.png

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Double digits doesnt sound right, agreed there.

However, don't use any experience from when you've also used MGs in tandem with the cannon, you could mistake those impact poofs for those.

 

Also there is a DM upgrade on the way down the road, so wait for that time come in before doing anything further probably.

 

Also dont expect a 3cm to always do damage like this. Sometimes they just punched through without making a hole as big as in your pictures. For it to consistently make damage such as that wouldn't be accurate.

Also(2), keep in mind that ammo wasn't perfect. Sometimes it just doesnt work correctly

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Was only shooting cannon ofcourse.

 

Also the above actually appears to be the most common amount of damage done according to a large number of British tests from all sorts of angles. No duds were recorded in the tests either

 

 

In short I wouldnt expect a fighter to survive 2 hits by this weapon, and mostly just 1 would be deadly. And if it does survive it should be crippled to the point of being unable to maneuver aggressively.

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Double digits doesnt sound right, agreed there.

However, don't use any experience from when you've also used MGs in tandem with the cannon, you could mistake those impact poofs for those.

 

Also there is a DM upgrade on the way down the road, so wait for that time come in before doing anything further probably.

 

Also dont expect a 3cm to always do damage like this. Sometimes they just punched through without making a hole as big as in your pictures. For it to consistently make damage such as that wouldn't be accurate.

Also(2), keep in mind that ammo wasn't perfect. Sometimes it just doesnt work correctly

 

I don't know how is it possible to mistake 13mm puf with 30mm puf in the first place.

single hit with 13mm probably looks like small flash,

single hit with 30mm looks more like demolition charge detonated + chunks of tail, wings, or what ever this round hit, falling just after this.

I cant wait till ED show proper 20mm/30mm cannon hits visually.

BTW i tataly agree about faulty ammo or faulty triggers, but any way we cant completely rule out good rounds which will inflict such a damage.

We cant hide behind this faulty ammo theory to remove true live performance of those rounds.

And this picture above is showing what this round is capable off. It just RIPS !!!!


Edited by grafspee

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And those tests are done as stationary, just imagine how much deadly it would be while air-frame was G loaded in flight.

20mm cannon will be much weaker so they cant go in to same box. I expect that pufs will be noticeable different from 30mm in future, same as inflicted damage.

And don't bring arguments like low velocity etc etc we just discussing thing when every required conditions were fulfilled in order to score hit.


Edited by grafspee

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As usually i doubt the 30mm claims, every time i have been hit or have hit with the 30 i have only had to fire 1 or 2 rounds, used tacview to verify,

 

now what i will say is that after being hit by 1 if the aircraft does survive it shouldnt be able to pull anywhere near the g that they can without being hit

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I think people tend to forget this was meant to be used operationally against bombers it is not easy to use in a dogfight

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I think people tend to forget this was meant to be used operationally against bombers it is not easy to use in a dogfight

 

That's irrelevant. The question is, will it behave like in the gif if you DO score a hit in a dogfight? This is where IL-2 absolutely failed. It's almost impossible to de-wing plane there, it will just start smoking and fall, and only lose wing if the whole plane explodes.

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That's irrelevant. The question is, will it behave like in the gif if you DO score a hit in a dogfight? This is where IL-2 absolutely failed. It's almost impossible to de-wing plane there, it will just start smoking and fall, and only lose wing if the whole plane explodes.

 

Not if you just read the previous comment that I was replying too...

 

As usually i doubt the 30mm claims, every time i have been hit or have hit with the 30 i have only had to fire 1 or 2 rounds, used tacview to verify,

 

now what i will say is that after being hit by 1 if the aircraft does survive it shouldnt be able to pull anywhere near the g that they can without being hit

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I usually cut in half my enemies after 2-3 30 mm hits which looks in line with those tests. Sure the damage model does no accurately represent the hole that we can see in those videos, but the final effect of the plane completely destroyed is there.

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I think people tend to forget this was meant to be used operationally against bombers it is not easy to use in a dogfight

 

Irrelevant, we are disusing case when 30 mm round score hit, Discussion for how hard to hit someone with it, is for different topic.

No one is calming that this is easy.

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Irrelevant, we are disusing case when 30 mm round score hit, Discussion for how hard to hit someone with it, is for different topic.

No one is calming that this is easy.

 

It is entirely relevant, as someone just mentioned having to hit an aircraft multiple time to get a kill with the 30mm which is nonsense. Please read the comments first before replying next time.

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It is entirely relevant, as someone just mentioned having to hit an aircraft multiple time to get a kill with the 30mm which is nonsense. Please read the comments first before replying next time.

 

It is not. Right now it is relevant because 30 mm is not effective as supposed to be. And definitely impact is not how it should look too.

I think everyone knows that it is not easy to hit small fighter with it,but it is possible for sure. And need to hit plane 3 or more times to take it down = 30 mm under performing.


Edited by grafspee

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It is not. Right now it is relevant because 30 mm is not effective as supposed to be. And definitely impact is not how it should look too.

I think everyone knows that it is not easy to hit small fighter with it,but it is possible for sure. And need to hit plane 3 or more times to take it down = 30 mm under performing.

 

Since you mentioned it.. Allied pilots, in DCS, are used to 'spray and pray' tactics from a mile behind the target, due to the 'paper plane' feeling of the german planes (bad damage model?? :/), that is, 1 hit engine dead, 1 hit wiggling, 1 hit from 6 o'clock pilot dead and so on. On the other hand, to be efficient in german planes you have to shoot the target from less than 100m, and from high deflection positions. Indeed, the 3cm is way under performing and that must be tackled correctly by ED in the new DM.

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Since you mentioned it.. Allied pilots, in DCS, are used to 'spray and pray' tactics from a mile behind the target, due to the 'paper plane' feeling of the german planes (bad damage model?? :/), that is, 1 hit engine dead, 1 hit wiggling, 1 hit from 6 o'clock pilot dead and so on. On the other hand, to be efficient in german planes you have to shoot the target from less than 100m, and from high deflection positions. Indeed, the 3cm is way under performing and that must be tackled correctly by ED in the new DM.

 

Are you sure that it was 1 mile it is quite a distance. Rounds from left and right wing would be quite far from each other at this distance + bullet drop will be significant. Unless it is fire from P-38


Edited by grafspee

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Are you sure that it was 1 mile it is quite a distance. Rounds from left and right wing would be quite far from each other at this distance + bullet drop will be significant. Unless it is fire from P-38

 

They DO fire from 1 mile behind.. That they don't hit anything, that's a different story. But the 'mind set' of them is that they CAN inflict deadly damage from far away.

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Pointless bickering aside, I am yet to see any sim do a convincing representation of the mk 108. If it takes more than 2 hits to kill a fighter it is wrong, and 1 should be sufficient for a small fighter like the Spitfire.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Pointless bickering aside, I am yet to see any sim do a convincing representation of the mk 108. If it takes more than 2 hits to kill a fighter it is wrong, and 1 should be sufficient for a small fighter like the Spitfire.

 

Indeed. I'd be surprised if any fighter could take more than 1 hit in real life and make it home, let alone maneuver in any even slightly aggressive way without falling apart.

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Interestingly just a few days ago I saw a video commenting on how there's records of P-47s coming back with 20+ 20mm hits, and either several 30mm hits.

 

 

That kind of statements as yours (this should or shouldn't happen with X hits) is in no way a "scientific" approach at all. It matters where the hit happens, the angles, the ammo type, the material where it hits, the bullet travelled distance, and so many more things I can't even think of. Reducing it to "2 or more hits should be definitive" is IMO way understating the problematic of an accurate damage model as I guess you (me certainly) would like to see.

 

 

 

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With 30mm it doesn't matter where it hits or the angles or whatever.. They done the research and the scientific conclusion was that only a couple of hits would render any bomber dead and 1 hit would destroy any mono engine fighter. As you can witness in the videos above.

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  • ED Team

So full disclosure, this is still WIP, and subject to change.

 

These two examples are from me just testing center mass, directly rear of the aircraft, so basically shooting the Spitfire right in the tail.

 

Now, I have to stress, while some of the older hit decals have been improved, its still not 1 to 1 bullet to hole, that hasn't changed beyond proper tuning of when and how the decals show, as well there were many spots on all aircraft that were not working properly, to begin with.

 

So this first image I am showing from the bottom, some more dramatic damage was shown on the fuselage in front of the tail, but what impressed me more is that the damaged travelled from the back of the plane, all the way through the aircraft, hitting a number of different objects as it went. You can see from the logs, it hit a great many things. The AI at this point turned for the nearest airfield.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=241787&stc=1&d=1593925951

 

This next one was a better one, I slipped to the side slightly and hit the Spitfire again from behind, but trying to hit it more from the right side. This time there are two images because the log of damage was so long I couldn't fit it on one screen, again, this was a quick, one pull burst, maybe 2 rounds. The Pilot should be bailing here, but this is part of the tuning we are still doing as the new effects come in, as well as the AI improvements we are working on.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=241788&stc=1&d=1593925951

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=241789&stc=1&d=1593925951

 

Had I held the trigger down a bit longer, I would have surely destroyed the back of the plane. But I just wanted to show a little dab will do you with the Mk108s. Also note I have one shot a tail off if you hit the right spot, as noted above, the cannon really is overkill for a fighter, but this isn't the real world, and cannon rounds are never ending here.

 

The ground shots from WWII testing are great, but also perfectly placed shots, even my tests above are starting right behind the spit and squeezing of a couple of rounds before he knows I am there. And even the first one I believe a lot of the round exited the plane, so not achieving the same amount of damage as the first one, and purely based on where I aimed.

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Edited by NineLine

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