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Current or planned state of DCS World Electromagnetic Warfare???


GumidekCZ

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It would be great and we could start consider DCS as a flight combat simulator.

Something more believable and realistic is very easy to do, but it seems to be delibarate that developpers don't implement some basic about ecm/eccm

 

 

 

Like i already said, "DCS hollywood combat flight game" :)

Not to mention the phoenix, a pure joke :megalol:

 

Did you mean Digital Cockpits Simulator? :smilewink:

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Guys, dont be so cocky. What we are asking is not easy, as it has not be done before in a commercial product. So no need to disrespect ED or HB, which btw have made a state of the art job simulating the f14 and phoenix combo, not perfect for sure but very close given the circumstances.

 

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Obviously they (ED) won't be able to get real world ECM data for most of the aircraft but they could do a better job with a simplified model. More powerful radars like the Tomcat's AN/AWG-9 should obviously be able to burn through ECM at greater distances. It is one of my biggest gripes with the game at the moment....
Depends on the jamming used. That'd be true for noise jamming, which is the most primitive form of jamming. More modern jammers, with higher processing speed etc would be able to jam the AWG-9 in ways that can't be circumvented with raw output power.

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You can find out more about "black arts" in the following video:

 

 

If we at least had this 1962 simulation it would be super cool. EDIT(Upper part irrelevant xD): I mean if we want a Digital Combat Simulator, that simulates nowadays Combats this has to be one of the keys aspects of it, just because its the key aspect of actual Modern Combat. We dont need particular systems for all the planes, but rather a set of systems that funciton the same way for all the planes and can be tuned and configured to the desired Combat situation. This way the combat will become more knowledge dependant than system dependant, also we dont have the secret inforamtion to make every particular system. Also this will give more importance to RIOs, AWACS calls and data link comunctations. If ED want to simualtion modern combat this is a must, and not only to particular aircraft but to the game in general. When i think what diferences Modern aircraft from WW2 planes or ealry rector planes its basically the RADAR, RADAR guided MISILES, and Data comunciations. And that implies ECM. I hope ED has this in mind when they think about DCS future, because we have full setting radars to detect planes that doesnt disrupt the radar at all, so why we need all of that sattings anyways? Sorry for bad English, Thanks MrWolf


Edited by MrWolf
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Of course that improving Electromagnetic Warfare in future of our virtual world would be great, some systems really "must have". But before our rocket will liftoff into deep space, I would like to have clear idea of what we already have available at our space center and how its simulated.

Today situation even for veteran DCS player is unclear with quite many questionmarks? Not talking about new players having absolute no idea whats going on behind EW curtain in DCS. They will than ask veterans, but even they mostly dont know.

Its like a racing game with many many car tuning possibilities without knowledge of its effect on car performance. Simple answers from devs could bring day light into it and the game could be than much better. And that is the goal we all aimming for, hopefully :)


Edited by GumidekCZ
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Of course that improving Electromagnetic Warfare in future of our virtual world would be grear, some systems really "must have". But before our rocket will liftoff into deep space, I would like to have clear idea of what we already have available at our space center and how its simulated.

Today situation even for veteran DCS player is unclear with quite many questionmarks?

The current situation is actually quite clear, as the current EW simulation is extremely simple. Sorry if I don't do a full write-up to address all your initial questions, but many of your questions don't even apply to DCS, as the EW simulation in DCS is much more simple than what you seem to expect.

 

 

Edit: Ok, I changed my mind. Let me write up a very short summary of the current EW simulation in DCS:

Each aircraft has a jammer flag, which can be true or false. If the aircraft has its jammer emitting its true, otherwise its false. If the flag is true (= jammer transmitting) and that aircraft gets radar locked/sweeped by another aircraft, than this other aircraft might see some jamming effects. I say might, because the actual jamming effects totally depends on the jammed aircraft and what the developer of that aircraft has implemented. Some aircraft don't even have any jamming effects at all, like the Hornet and Viper in their current state. Other aircraft (e.g. F-15C, MiG-21bis) will see an effect that resembles some kind of noise jamming, while others will see deception jamming effects (false targets) as it is the case for the M2000C. Some aircraft (e.g. F-15C) will also be unable to perform an IFF interrogation untill burn through is achieved.

So again, all those jamming effects are totally at the will of the developers of the jammed aircraft. The jamming aircraft has no other attributes besides jammer on or off (true/false).

 

That's all for player controlled aircraft. For AI controlled aircraft (and SAMs), it just reduces the lockon range by a certain percentage (~30% or so).


Edited by QuiGon

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The current situation is actually quite clear, as the current EW simulation is extremely simple. Sorry if I don't do a full write-up to address all your initial questions, but many of your questions don't even apply to DCS, as the EW simulation in DCS is much more simple than what you seem to expect.

I admit that I added to list some points Im aware of (like point 16 - RCS changing through different angles), but someone else may appreciate to know the answer. :smartass: Im not sure about exact answer, maybe with near introduction of SEA radar, different angle of ship (changings ships RCS) will result in different contact range.

 

If you know details (that are 100% valid for current stable DCS version) about how actual system works, you can write about it here or make a vid about it. :smilewink:


Edited by GumidekCZ
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If you are know details (that are 100% valid for current stable DCS version) about how actual system works, you can write about it here or make a vid about it. :smilewink:

Just did that (see above) ;)

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...HB, which btw have made a state of the art job simulating the f14 and phoenix combo, not perfect for sure but very close given the circumstances.

 

For a game, perhaps, but for a simulator, not really

 

F-14 Big old plane has better sustained turn rate and is better dogfighter that F-16 F-18 mig-29,....

F-14 old big phoenix better than amraam 120C

F-14 old radar immune against ecm

etc....

YOu have a true winner here...

That's not serious for a simulator, strange that ED does not react or not so strange in fact :)

 

F-14 will be even better than futur EF-2000 :megalol:

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For a game, perhaps, but for a simulator, not really

 

F-14 Big old plane has better sustained turn rate and is better dogfighter that F-16 F-18 mig-29,....

F-14 old big phoenix better than amraam 120C

F-14 old radar immune against ecm

etc....

YOu have a true winner here...

That's not serious for a simulator, strange that ED does not react or not so strange in fact :)

 

F-14 will be even better than futur EF-2000 :megalol:

So after you unloaded your bias against the Tomcat, could we now get back to the actual topic of this thread?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Any response from any ED team member? They must be really busy these days.

Hi Gumi,

 

They cannot answer this as it doesnt give the correct image of the product.

 

Radar is not emulated as a "emmission and return", it's simulated as a possible return based on filters.

Those filters are:

- the direction the radar is looking in, it's gimbal limits, including it's scan pattern

- It's strength

- look down and doppler limitations

- RCS values of the item at the end of the scan

- Terrain blocks to line of sight

 

NOTHING come sout of the end of an aircraft to check air contacts. NOTHING. This has been discussed many times and people are still confused on the topic.

Ground and surface radar are abstractions of imagery on the terrain, put these to one side for now.

 

ECM was a client side abstraction of the radar return. It's not simualted at all, it was very basic and has never changed. in FC3, at exactly 23nm you get burn through, the rest are artefacts caused by the client knowing there is ECM. Quigon writes it up well enough for an answer.

 

So that is that im afraid all the answers are there.

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I admit that I added to list some points Im aware of (like point 16 - RCS changing through different angles), but someone else may appreciate to know the answer. :smartass: Im not sure about exact answer, maybe with near introduction of SEA radar, different angle of ship (changings ships RCS) will result in different contact range.

 

If you know details (that are 100% valid for current stable DCS version) about how actual system works, you can write about it here or make a vid about it. :smilewink:

 

There’s a modifier to change RCS if looking from the side or rear, all based off the RCS number which is front aspect only. Nothing more. Modifiers for speed difference. A modifier for PRF. All just determines if the flag is true or false and if true you get a contact

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There’s a modifier to change RCS if looking from the side or rear, all based off the RCS number which is front aspect only. Nothing more. Modifiers for speed difference. A modifier for PRF. All just determines if the flag is true or false and if true you get a contact

Finally an answer, which make at least some insight into one of my points. Thanks AeriaG

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It's coming. Problem is, it's going to be put behind a paywall.

Well, the devs don't work for fun. They need to earn a living, just like you and me too.

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Well, the devs don't work for fun. They need to earn a living, just like you and me too.

 

While a true statement, and one I will fully back up, there is a line that should not be crossed.

 

After buying every module ED offers on their E-Shop, I expect, based on promises made by ED when they sold their module(s), that certain things to be a part of the module(s); working radar, and electronic warfare capabilities for those modules that have them.

 

Now it seems, after collecting not just my money but everyone who is in the same boat as I, including yourself I'm almost sure of @QuiGon, rather than fix those modules individually ED is going to charge us an additional fee to fix their module(s) as a whole.

 

Why? Because even though it was promised when ED sold us the module(s), and ED knew just how complex the subject matter was when they sold us the module(s), ED now realizes they aren't going to make any money fixing the issues they knew they had when they sold us the module(s). So, now it would seem that ED is going to lump the fixing of radar and electronic warfare into two separate modules, and charge us for something we've already paid for.

 

Something as fundamental as radar and electronic warfare in a combat simulator, something that has an affect on every module in the game, shouldn't be placed behind a paywall when ED knew the situation going into it, and made a promise to include it in the module(s) when they collected everyone's money.

 

Why people can't see what is happening, and insist that this practice is ok, boggles my mind. I admit I was once an ED fanboy who believed they could do no wrong. Since May 2013 I have gobbled up every module ED has offered, and then some, with the idea that I was supporting ED. 90% of all campaigns I have bought I have yet to even touch. Even though I purchased them at the time of early release, I have yet to fly half the Warbirds. I have purchased aircraft modules and maps for friends to try and get them interested in DCS. I'm going to throw even more money at ED with the coming releases of the Hind and Kiowa. And in the future even more money as more and more maps and modules are released. As it stands right now, since November 2016 I average $29.72 a month in support to ED. But I cannot, and will not stand paying for a module that fixes something as fundamental as radar and electronic warfare in a combat flight simulator; especially after paying for it once already upon the module(s) release.

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Well, the devs don't work for fun. They need to earn a living, just like you and me too.

 

Are you ready to be billed for updates?

 

IFF for Hornet for 7.99.

Hornet ECM functionality for 9.99.

A improved FLIR functions only for 19.99.

 

Seriously, the Combined Arms is the mother of all combat module. It is the module that is about combining Air, Ground and Sea units. It is to handle all commanding of units, all manning the ground and sea units.... It is the Real-Time Strategy game and Tactical/Strategical Commander game of all. For long time ED was selling it for a laughable low prices, like 4,50 or something because they didn't have anything for it! Then they announced that they will stop selling it for the low price and increased it sale to current 39.99.

 

At those old prices almost everyone should already have it. But it is not the buyer fault to pay low price, it is the seller problem to ask so little for it.

 

IMHO the Combined Arms price should be around 69.99 or even little more, but with the promise that it will get almost everything there is for the commanding units, planning strategic and making tactical decisions.

 

Everything else from the EW, radars, IFF, FLIR and so on should be in the free DCS World. Yes, in the free DCS World that allows a any player download and install DCS World and get a Su-25T and TF-51 to fly for free. They can't command any units. They can't fly any other aircrafts. They have nothing else than access to those two aircrafts and then a mission editor to put AI fly around or fly with other DCS players.

 

So from where does the developers get their money? With modules. Like example the KA-50 and A-10C are getting major overhauls, but said to be a "very big discount" for existing owners.

ED should be improving the DCS World, and then they get own license cut from the sales of 3rd party modules. And ED should be making own modules that are utilizing all those DCS World features.

 

How?

 

1) Start selling individual/group of ground units that can be controlled and operated, like SAM systems (huge amount of Soviet era SAM systems are completely public by official documents since Cold War ended, there is no secrets there!) where you pay like:

- 24.99 for a SA-19 Tunguska

- 14.99 for a SA-6 Kub + 14.99 for a SA-11 Buk

- 9,99 for a SA-9 Strela-1 + 14,99 for a SA-13 Strela-10M

- 7,99 for a Shilka ZSU-23-4

- 9,99 for a M1A1 Abrams

- 14,99 for a T-80

- 7,99 for a BTR-60 + 4,99 for a BTR-80.

 

You don't need to make them 100% accurate by the systems, just acceptably. 3D interiors, proper crew stations, proper functions and simplified usage so even one player can use one vehicle, but most importantly allow realistic operations by following radar/TV/FLIR/data-links/radios etc in there. So tap straight to the DCS World core features and functions. Mounting, unmounting troops and all...

 

2) Start selling AI units only for given era. Like units for a Iraq in 70-90's. For West-Germany in 60-70's and another for 70-80's. No access to drive them, but you have a proper collection of all kind units in the kit. So you can create missions with very wide array of the units.

But this is challenging as splitting the MP community as was with the WW2 assets pack. So likely it would need to be so that AI is free, but you can man those vehicles in some manner for CA use.

 

3) New variants from the existing aircrafts (and ground vehcles) where it is possible for the time and effort. Like after Mi-24P is ready, make a Mi-24V that is same except from the front cockpit and cannon vs gatling. Make the new additional functionality where one can sell main module that is required if someone wants to by a additional variation. So one can go and buy Mi-24P as base and then it is needed to be owned before one can buy a Mi-24V for a 19,99 and Mi-24VP for 19,99. So it is P + V + VP to buy.

 

4) Start to utilize the training aircrafts in a new way. L-39C front seat to be offered for free in multiplayer if module owner so wants. Meaning those who have purchased L-39C license, can install DCS World (as free) for another computer in their household, and then install L-39C as well on that computer. Now the player has two computers A and B, where A has license for L-39C and B has it installed without license. Then player can start a multiplayer session with A, and get the B joining to inside the same L-39C but only to front seat. If the A disconnects or jumps out/switch to another then B is kicked out from the L-39C, so B can never fly alone without license or someone with license at the backseat.

This way you have existing owners of the training modules to offer a free rides for various people who are not required to own the license. It would be literally helping other people to fly (as the purpose of training aircraft) with capability to always override the controls (as instructor has that capability in backseat). Think about the marketing potential when people can get to set two computers in various events to fly random people in front seat? If they get interested, they can install DCS and start paying for some modules! Hooray, a new players!

 

5) Missions, and more missions and campaigns. Easy way to get those. Yes dynamic campaign engine will be there to come, but it will not replace a well done campaign with all custom elements tailored for the experience.

 

Eventually ED as any other studio IS REQUIRED to update and upgrade their software products. There is no way around it. Like ED has done update for A-10C and KA-50 already, but they are now going for extra step to offer an upgrade. Their free graphical updates were real honorable gesture toward their loyal and long time customers. They didn't need to offer that graphical update for free, but thinking that they would ask money for it while new buyers gets the graphical update is not nice thing either.

 

There are already other modules in line for that graphical update situation, F-5E, Mi-8MTv2, UH-1H.... All those needs already a graphics update with tweaked 3D models etc. But it is software business, you are selling the same product all the time and you just need to update it as time passes.

 

But eventually every studio needs to realize that they must generate new products to keep selling. One studio can't just keep going with a one module and start cashing the updates or upgrades forever. EA can do it with many of their sports game, but that is because there is far more players there ready to pay for last statics and little better graphics or animations etc.

 

There are multiple new modules that ED could offer for DCS World, if it would make them or allow 3rd party studios to create ones. Like one cheap module for a ATC operations and another for a GCI? There are people who are interested to sit in a AWACS and talk to people from there etc. There are ways to add new means for playing in DCS, without taking away it from the CA owners or mission designers.

 

But to put a IFF, ECM, Radios etc behind a paywall? No....

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It's coming. Problem is, it's going to be put behind a paywall.

 

If you look at their proposal for IADS, they are well aware of the concerns people have about "paywalls", and ED, believe it or not, tries very hard to make things as balanced as possible when it comes to free vs paid.

 

Also, understand that paywall seems to be the newest catchphrase on the street, you cant just call it paywall because you have to pay for it, as if we are being greedy, these things are not free for us to create, sometimes some of those costs have to be reimbursed, its the nature of business.

 

Again, we do our very best to give as much as we can.

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If you look at their proposal for IADS, they are well aware of the concerns people have about "paywalls", and ED, believe it or not, tries very hard to make things as balanced as possible when it comes to free vs paid.

 

Also, understand that paywall seems to be the newest catchphrase on the street, you cant just call it paywall because you have to pay for it, as if we are being greedy, these things are not free for us to create, sometimes some of those costs have to be reimbursed, its the nature of business.

 

Again, we do our very best to give as much as we can.

 

The statement I made about a "paywall" is referring specifically to electronic warfare. It seems you saw the image and where it came from, and completed disregarded the outlined section.

 

Furthermore, if you read my post #42 within this thread, you would see I understand "the nature of business." You would also see why I am quite disturbed if ED opts to go down the road of putting basic fundamental things such as EW and radar behind a "paywall" (yes I said it).

 

As @Fri said, and I agree with, there's ways for ED to recoup the costs, but charging for something that affects every module in the game is not the way to do it. ED still claims this is a "free to play" game, right? If it literally effects every module in the game, it should fall under the "free to play" aspect.

 

When those of us who have been with ED some 5+ years (a little over 7 myself), and who probably own every module you offer like I do, and are averaging $29+ a month in support, charging for something as fundamental as radar and EW that effects every module in a "free to play" game, it starts to look a bit like greed. I've quit playing games when spending half that much; and yet I still remain loyal to ED.

 

EDIT: I've also stated in the other thread specifically talking IADS, that I would back the development if it was to be an upgrade to the current Combined Arms. Paying full price for a module like DCS: IADS is absurd when the current DCS: World ME and Combined Arms module can do almost the exact same thing, and is even more capable with the current IADS script.


Edited by Baaz
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If you look at their proposal for IADS, they are well aware of the concerns people have about "paywalls", and ED, believe it or not, tries very hard to make things as balanced as possible when it comes to free vs paid.

 

Also, understand that paywall seems to be the newest catchphrase on the street, you cant just call it paywall because you have to pay for it, as if we are being greedy, these things are not free for us to create, sometimes some of those costs have to be reimbursed, its the nature of business.

 

Again, we do our very best to give as much as we can.

 

I don't think anyone here expects charity. However, DCS is free to play. There's no real denying that air defenses and EW are pretty fundamental parts of a modern combat simulator.

 

If it truly is becoming so complex and time-intensive to maintain and improve the core sim that improvements to it have to be paid for, then perhaps it's time to drop the free-to-play model.

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OP is asking for clarification, why is this moved to "Wishlist"?

I have to ask forum admins same question, Why wishlist? I created this thread to get answers on things included in DCS World, I didn't wish anything new. Believe me, if wanted to, it would be long list, but then we will need 2 computers to run DCS.

If the hunger for answers also counts as wish, please ED, make my asks answered please.

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Just wanted to add some info on F-14B's radar:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4482583&postcount=164

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4482591&postcount=87

 

and RWR:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4266306&postcount=17

 

Otoh F-14B can use noise jamming but is not yet affected by ECM in any way (planned feature).

 

As you can see there are big systems simulation differences between modules.


Edited by draconus

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These are my answers from what I know or heard about current DCS implementation. Feel free to correct me on any errors and I'll edit to make the list consistent in one post.

 

 

2) Which sources of electromagnetic spectrum are detectable, how they can be detected or jammed.

Radio signals are used by radio equipment both as sound or DF.

DL signals are used by DL equipment between aircraft and other aircraft/AWACS/GCI(EWR)/ship.

Radar signals (including jamming) are detected by RWR equipment and can be jammed by ECM equipment both internal or external (pod) depending on range.

 

3) How the radars now emits energy?

They don't - it's a simulation so it's just a data telling that some radar sends some kind of signal into some direction.

 

Is scanned azimuth (L/R, narrow, wide) and selected number of bars affecting EM emission of the waves?

It's used to calculate the LOS and detection when the antenna swipes through the contact.

 

4) How big are STT cones are how far can RWR detect other radar emissions and hard locked STT cone energy?

Depends on the radar/module.

 

5) Can the RWR detected energy even when located inside of enemy radar limits, but outside of currently scanned azimuth and elevation?

Depends on the radar/module.

 

6 ) Are the same rules applied to AI as are for human controlled units?

No. Depending on the module and weapon it can be much different.

AI response to missile launch:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4483840&postcount=23

 

7) What kind of JAMing do we have in DCS? (Noise Jamming, Deception ECM -range/angle)

Noise jamming only (SPJ) - denial of radar range info and ability to lock on up to the burn-through range.

 

8 ) Which modules simulates negative effect of being jammed?

From modules I own: FC3 Su-27/33, Mig-29 and F-15C.

 

9) Which modules or assets can JAM others?

From modules I own:

- internal: F-14B, FC3 Mig-29S, F-15C

- external pod: FC3 Su-27/33, Su-25/25T

 

10 ) If ECM is used in DCS World, is here simulated limited JAM direction or adjustable JAM direction by advanced JAMing systems?

No.

 

13) How is in the DCS World simulated the difference between AESA and Doppler radar?

Since we don't have any module with AESA, only AI uses one and it is simplified - so really no difference beside detection ranges.

 

14) What platforms together with what missiles can now shoot HOJ?

From modules I own: F-15C w/AIM-120 & AIM-7, F-14's AIM-54 can HOJ as per manual.

 

15) How is the RCS calculated for any of DCS world unit and how it affects its detectability?

One value distinct for every airframe is multiplied by the aspect parameter and if look up/down then the radars get this info and calculate farther.

 

16) Is the RCS value changing by different reflection angle of the unit?

See 15).

 

17) Is in DCS World simulated equation between RCS and distance for all radar equipped units?

Yes.

 

16 ) Do the DCS players have access to the detecting limits Range vs RCS, or will they some day?

Afaik these are available in game's lua files.

 

19) How the Pulse Repetition Frequency is simulated? Is the some heavy equation mathematic thing or just simple multiply by an given coefficient.

I believe it's simple.

 

20) How the Doppler gate is simulated? If I hang my a/c on tail pipes - almost sitting in the air, does it mean that I will be invisible to doppler based radars?

Yes. Different radars have different gate sizes.

 

21) Does the Notch maneuver and slip through Doppler gate also in effect when flying in vertical?

Yes. What matters is closure rate for doppler and beaming plus ground clutter for notching.

 

22) How Chaff countermeasures effectiveness are calculated in DCS World?

Random but depending on weapon CM resistance parameter.

 

***

1) Are the optic sensors presented at any of the modules (CF3 included) affected by smoke or humidity presented in line of sight or just simply the size of the target?

There's no humidity currently in DCS apart from visual clounds/precipitation and it doesn't affect FC3 IRST, smoke included, but visually can clutter optical targeting pods.

 

2) Can IR guided missile guide itself thru the cloud (falling snow at winter) or can be confused by any burning (not smoking) ground fire?

They see through clouds and precipitation and only the flares and sun IR effect is considered.


Edited by draconus

🖥️ Win10 i7-10700KF 32GB RTX3060   🥽 Rift S   🕹️ T16000M HOTAS   ✈️ FC3, F-14A/B, F-15E   ⚙️ CA   🚢 SC   🌐 NTTR, PG, Syria

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