MiloMorai Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 If you guys expecting the devs to BALANCE these planes you should maybe find a game that does do just that. This is a sim through and through, there will be no balancing here. At least I hope thats the case. Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives. If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage. Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Yes we have an early '44 P-51 That would be the P-51B.. http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives. If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage. Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance. Im not sure you got my point. This sim is not about balancing. Some fighters were better than others. Period. Fullstop. Some were better at altitude, some down low. Others in a climb. etc. etc. etc. One of the joys of simming in this environment is precisely the fact that there will be no concessions for the sake of "competitiveness". If you want to compete go fly Warthunder, or World of Warplanes. Edited December 5, 2014 by OnlyforDCS Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That would be the P-51B.. B is from 1943 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives. If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage. Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance. In al my 1.5 years of ww2 sim flying i have never been shot down by a spit 14 and if i did my kill death ratio vs it must be about 20 to 1. Most spit pilots will choose mk9 because it turns tighter. For me it's harder to kill an mk 9.I can't count how many times i've been shot down by one. And all this talk about octanes and what not. All allied fighters will be way slower than the historically 1944 present me 262 anyway. I would have wanted a fw a5,6,7,8 and a g14 , 6 but the decision was not mine. Edited December 5, 2014 by otto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 B is from 1943 And the D we have is from past June 1944, so definitely not an "early vs late" plane setup, the D-9, K-4 and P-51D all saw combat in the 2nd half of 1944. There is about 2 months between the operational introduction of the P-51D and D-9 and maybe three with the K-4. They are also fairly close performance wise. http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Sorry but first you have to get your facts right. 1. K4 and P51 have pretty damn close max speed, K4 with MW50 is claimed 715km/h, without MW ~670km/h. P-51 top speed is around 710km/h. 2. K4 does not have 2200hp engine but 1800hp with MW 50. Without MW around 1500hp. 3. K4 in DCS does not have flettner tabs. It has same ailerons as G models because majority of K4's had them IRL. It does not turn faster than "regular" G6. And you must understand that, while 109s tend to get stiff on faster speeds it was still fully manouverable, you just had to use more power to turn etc. Being stiff or hard does not mean unmanouverable. It's only after 750km/h or so when it starts to get really stiff and you have to use trim to pull of ouf dive for example. 4. Once K4 run out of MW 50 or are forced to take break of using it, it's not that much different to say G14 performance wise for example. Without MW50, p-51 will be faster. If Mustang pilot however starts to turn with 109 under 500km/h or try to climb away and there is skilled pilot in 109, then he is screwed. Just like in real life... I like ur knowledge. 1. It is faster though. So 51 cant run 2. So its not c3 fuel.hmm 3 I could have sworn it does. Going below 500kph doesn't mean that 51 is not able to follow the 109. Only at 360 and below the 109 should have clear advantage. 4. Tell me how long can u fly with MW50. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) That would be the P-51B.. The first P-51Ds arrived in the ETO in March 1944. Dora - Sept '44 so 6 months after P-51Ds K-4 - Oct '44 so 7 months after P-51Ds Edited December 5, 2014 by MiloMorai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Here's a quick recap for P-51D15's and the Bf 109K-4's speed and climb rates with the boost we have for them in DCS (67" Hg and 1.8 ata) The climb chart explains quickly why the P-51D gets raped by the K-4 in climbs, turns and most energy maneuvers.. it is clear that its entirely wrong to even attempt to beat the K-4 pilot in these. The 51D was probably the best test results (others are slower) from 15 June 1945, Ohio, P-51D Airplane, AAF No. 44-15342. The aircraft had standard wing racks and 67" boost. K-4 figures are from manufacturer for multiple propeller types, the one we have in DCS (VDM 12159) is marked with red. Edited December 5, 2014 by Kurfürst http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 And the D we have is from past June 1944, so definitely not an "early vs late" plane setup, the D-9, K-4 and P-51D all saw combat in the 2nd half of 1944. There is about 2 months between the operational introduction of the P-51D and D-9 and maybe three with the K-4. They are also fairly close performance wise. True. Still most 109s were G6 and G14. K4 was certainly not ordinary. K4 is a leap in development of 109 while 51D is just worse aerodynamic for better visibility. The fact that what we have in DCS doesn't have 150 octane fuel is not helping [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_corleone Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it. C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it. C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates Wow. This again? This is applicable to Real life, not in a sim. Try it. Take P51 and beat a 109E3, then try to beat 109K4. Or better. Go fight guns only against MiG29 in your Bf. Skill within sim community is quite high. It is mostly fight till somebody makes a mistake. In 109k4 you can make more mistakes and win. Edited December 5, 2014 by Solty [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it. C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates That's entirely true of course, however apart from good piloting, which is a must, you must also understand the performance envelope of both planes and to base tactics on that... yes against worser pilots that can even be skipped, but nobody can assume meeting inferior pilots all the time. http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pman Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Tell me this sim won't devolve into a clusterf*#! of Spit XIVs and 109K-4s furballing near the ground, please! :badmood: In my opinion, wishing for a bigger gun is not a helpful outlook. First, reassess your tactics. Incessant defensive circles are not the way to victory with the P-51D and never were until the 190D-9 was its only opponent. This 109K-4 does not have special performance compared to past flight sims (if anything it is more tricky to fly), and right now P-51 pilots can easily escape with a dive and a high g turn... which means, as usual, altitude is life.:thumbup: For what its worth we will be developing the Spitfire XIV to be historically accurate (as much as possible) using real world data gathered from airworthy aircraft and current pilots. Historical data although good is often not reliable as it is often a biased view and/or a matter of relativity. We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;) If it means that FW190's rule everything then there is nothing we can do about that, we cant "buff" or "nerf" our aircraft to make it more acceptable to peoples expectations about how they should or should not perform That said I had my first A2A in a Bf109K4 vs P-51D and I quite enjoyed myself and scored some good hits on a P-51 (players, not AI), 2 damaged scores for my tab but no kills yet :) Pman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_corleone Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Wow. This again? This is applicable to Real life, not in a sim. Try it. Take P51 and beat a 109E3, then try to beat 109K4. Or better. Go fight guns only against MiG29 in your Bf. Skill within sim community is quite high. It is mostly fight till somebody makes a mistake. In 109k4 you can make more mistakes and win. Ok, lets start 1. I did not say I am flying a 109, actually I own the 3 Ww2 birds , and I like the mustang more 2. Lets be clever, I am not saying GUNS only against a Mig29, I am saying against of Ww2 we have, there is not so Big advantages for some against others, lets say the advantages make them better a 10% in the best case. 3. You will be always shot down if you do not know how to fight, this is not only in DCS, this is worldwide, this does not mean that if you are a bad pilot, and enter in a 109 you will be an Insta-ace because the plane is better, of course, you will be shot down. 4. The fight of the mistake is really true, but mistakes are mistakes, and the best can always make mistakes, it is more common for the newbies? yes, but everybody can make mistakes, this make sense in the plane you are, like you said, but the plane forgiving your mistakes is not going to give you kills, instead is going to give you less efficiency, You are not going to be an Ace sitting in the 109 fighting against p51, you are going to be an Ace if you play for at least 300 hours on the plane, you will learn how to not make mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 For what its worth we will be developing the Spitfire XIV to be historically accurate (as much as possible) using real world data gathered from airworthy aircraft and current pilots. Historical data although good is often not reliable as it is often a biased view and/or a matter of relativity. We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;) If it means that FW190's rule everything then there is nothing we can do about that, we cant "buff" or "nerf" our aircraft to make it more acceptable to peoples expectations about how they should or should not perform That said I had my first A2A in a Bf109K4 vs P-51D and I quite enjoyed myself and scored some good hits on a P-51 (players, not AI), 2 damaged scores for my tab but no kills yet :) Pman Thank you for the voice of reason. Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solty Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Ok, lets start 1. I did not say I am flying a 109, actually I own the 3 Ww2 birds , and I like the mustang more 2. Lets be clever, I am not saying GUNS only against a Mig29, I am saying against of Ww2 we have, there is not so Big advantages for some against others, lets say the advantages make them better a 10% in the best case. 3. You will be always shot down if you do not know how to fight, this is not only in DCS, this is worldwide, this does not mean that if you are a bad pilot, and enter in a 109 you will be an Insta-ace because the plane is better, of course, you will be shot down. 4. The fight of the mistake is really true, but mistakes are mistakes, and the best can always make mistakes, it is more common for the newbies? yes, but everybody can make mistakes, this make sense in the plane you are, like you said, but the plane forgiving your mistakes is not going to give you kills, instead is going to give you less efficiency, You are not going to be an Ace sitting in the 109 fighting against p51, you are going to be an Ace if you play for at least 300 hours on the plane, you will learn how to not make mistakes. 1. Cant comment on preferances. 2. 10% would be between 109 and spit. In a fight against 51 the109 has all advantages. K4 is Faster or at least as fast As maneuverable Has better turn Better climb Better acceleration Better stall speed So P51 can't run. Can't turn. Can't climb. And in a dive sooner or later k4 will catch him. Only roll at High speed is better for 51. Scissors are the only way... And not a good way. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies. My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS. My channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abburo Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;) Pman This is DCS (using spartan Leonidas voice :D), this is the normal and corect approach and please keep that way. If I will want to go fight in a Mustang against a Kurfurst, I will make sure I will have a wingmen with me. Otherwise, adapt, adapt adapt.. run, snap... etc :D. Anyway, I am enjoying all of them! Romanian Community for DCS World HW Specs: AMD 7900X, 64GB RAM, RTX 4090, HOTAS Virpil, MFG, CLS-E, custom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthuro12 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 What caused most Allied victories? That's right! TEAMWORK! Stop moaning about balance and get a wingman. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrapeJam Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 (edited) Pretty sure RL P51D didn't go against K4 with 67"hg limit, it's at least 75"hg. Having the P51D in game limited at 67"hg is neither historical nor balanced. It would be interesting to see the D9 and K4 users reaction if the MW50's taken away from the planes, would their reaction still be your standard "l2p noob"? Well, seeing as your virtual luftwaffe aces alway be the first to whine about supposedly "unhistorical thing" about their planes I seriously doubt it. Edited December 5, 2014 by GrapeJam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyforDCS Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Pretty sure RL P51D didn't go against K4 with 67"hg limit, it's at least 75"hg. Having the P51D in game limited at 67"hg is neither historical nor balanced. It would be interesting to see the D9 and K4 users reaction if the MW50's taken away from the planes, would their reaction still be your standard "l2p noob"? Well, seeing as your virtual luftwaffe aces alway be the first to whine about supposedly "unhistorical thing" about their planes I seriously doubt it. Im a P51 pilot. I dont have a problem with the K4 being the way it is. How's that? Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB 605 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 4. Tell me how long can u fly with MW50. 4 x 10 minutes, IIRC at least 5 min. pause between every time. CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foul Ole Ron Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 72" Mustang vs D9 / K4 using B4/MW50 would probably have been the most common match up. Hopefully the Mustang will get a bit of a boost to reflect what would have been a more common engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrapeJam Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Im a P51 pilot. I dont have a problem with the K4 being the way it is. How's that? It's your personal opinion, more power to you. You can always limit yourself at 67"hg if the P51D get remodeled, just don't force it on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin-27 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 What caused most Allied victories? That's right! TEAMWORK! Stop moaning about balance and get a wingman. I came here to say THIS. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] [Dogs of War] WWII COMBAT SERVER | P-51D - FW190-D9 - Me109-K4 Visit Our Website & Forum to Get More Info & Team Speak Access Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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