The Rookie Thread

Hey all

I've been flying the A-10 for a while and enjoying that a whole lot; Picked up the TM Warthog set and a trackir5, and have been playing some multiplayer flights. I really dug in deep in DCS A-10.

But I bought Black Shark when that was released, but that game was a brick wall to me. Now, being used to DCS A-10 and having more hardware to assist me, I decided to buy the BS2 upgrade and see if I didn't have better luck.

Upsides: I have a much better understanding of what "standard" gauges in a cockpit mean now, and also have a better understanding of startup procedures and dependencies, so getting around the startup, which was a long arduous learning process in the A-10, has been very smooth now with that prior knowledge.

But holy crap if flying this thing isn't unpleasant.

So, naturally, I know that a) I'm bad at it, and b) I'm bad at it. I really want to improve, and especially after learning how to use the Shkval and HMS together (Man, if the A-10 had an HMS...).

The issues I have are simple, I think; I feel like I always fight the autopilot, and I never have a good sense of the trimmer. Having to re-center the stick every time I trim exacerbates this issue; I keep wishing i had a way to trim the cyclic with a hat...

So, some questions regarding the trimmer/AP :-)

1. What is the best procedure for applying the rudder from an auto-hover if I wish to laterally align with a target? Right now i'm finding it is actually easier to use the Shkval and turn-to-target than to perform this manually.. The AP always wants to return to the same angle "stored" when AH was engaged, so the procedure as I understand it is to hold the trim, rudder to the desired angle, and release the trim. This gives moderately good results, but tends to throw the trim off in some way. It feels "dirty".

3. On the topic of the rudder; Is it normal for the helicopter to want to turn laterally even with no rudder applied? I feel like the #1 reason to trim for me right now is to keep the chopper from turning to the right during level flight. Actually: I'm not CRAZY to want to use the rudder a lot, am I?

2. Is it normal to constantly feel like the nose wants to go up or down way more than I intend it to? I'm using really small cyclic movements but still I get into situations where I'm trimmed into a corner and I have to reset it or slam into a mountain, and ALWAYS when I reset the trim in such a situation, I better have the cyclic hard forward, or the chopper is going to invert backwards.

If I were to sum up all my issues, it's that it feels like everything I want to do is attenuated, and everything I don't want to do is accentuated: Nose goes too far, bank doesn't go far enough. I feel like I'm in a constant argument with the helo. As a result I can't really manage anything resembling truly controlled flight. It's maddening.

Any pointers on good ways to practice arguing with the AP, since that's apparently a big part of flying this thing?

Hey all

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For now

BS Auto Pilot description and operation

 

Any pointers on good ways to practice arguing with the AP, since that's apparently a big part of flying this thing?

Hi, if your new to it or not enjoying the AP functions then try using FD instead, it will give you a much more conventional control that feels a lot more natural to many people. It does mean you will have to fly the thing rather than letting the AP control trajectory, but it feels very natural and is easy to cope with the simple BS systems whilst being hands on with the chopper.

Come back to the AP later or on long boring cross country legs where you can enjoy its benefits.

Thats what I does.

Hi, if your new to it or not enjoying the AP functions then try using FD instead, it will give you a much more conventional control that feels a lot more natural to many people. It does mean you will have to fly the thing rather than letting the AP control trajectory, but it feels very natural and is easy to cope with the simple BS systems whilst being hands on with the chopper.

 

Come back to the AP later or on long boring cross country legs where you can enjoy its benefits.

 

Thats what I does.

Please stop recommending practices against standard operating procedures to rookies.

Official standard procedures don't work for everyone because of many reasons including controller hardware issues and as such it's not helpful to keep other ways of doing stuff secret. Knowledge of the official way is important though.

Helicopters have a natural tendency to not fly exactly where the nose points when flying straight forward. Even if the co-axial design reduces this tendency in Ka-50 it will still want to fly a bit sideways. You need to either sideslip a bit or fly with a bit of roll angle.

At slower speeds when the helicopter is flying sideways it has a tendency to turn it's nose to the direction of movement. Change of speed and direction will change the forces affecting the chopper and requires a re-trim to keep the nose direction. While autopilot will compensate for this it has limited authority.

Increasing collective or forward speed both affect pitch up tendency positively. Changes in either one require re-trim to keep the nose from pitching up or down. You can also use this to aim rockets more accurately by making the last small adjustment in pitch angle with collective instead of cyclic.

Learn to stay coordinated in turns and you will find the chopper much easier to control. Also learn to use the AP even if you like to fly with FD on as employing weapons effectively requires you to not be able to fly manually all the time.

No.

Official standard procedures don't work for everyone because of many reasons including controller hardware issues and as such it's not helpful to keep other ways of doing stuff secret. Knowledge of the official way is important though.

It's all fine as long as it's brought up to solve particular problems after a cadet has a basic grasp of the fundamentals, and with a clear comment that the presented non-standard way is non-standard. Bluepilot76 does neither of this.

There are certain known issues with the in-game implementations but they are not serious enough to justify trashing the proper curriculum by throwing shack tricks at rookies as soon as they ask a question about trimming and autopilot.

As has been said many times, fly it however you want to.

On day 1 of flight school the "cadet" does not learn how to use the autopilot. The "cadet" learns how to fly the aircraft.

I have seen many posts by rookies saying why cant we use this.... this is good.

"Because we say so" does not cut it.

Also I tried to provide a helpful post. Unlike you.

Oh you took a rep off me. How big of you.

The "what about FD?" vs. "nooo you are doing it wrong!" debate never gets old. ;)

Must... resist... urge... to post opinion... :cry:

What's happening is that you're fighting the autopilot.

Here's how you ideally should deal with all this:

1. For training on how to fly a helicopter, turn FD ON. Do this without weapons - no combat. Don't even get tempted. Once you master the helo in this respect ...

2. Read the links Bucic is pointing to, and turn FD OFF. Memorize what the AP does - by reading - first, fly second. Practice until you're at ease with the AP influence on your flight. Again, no combat.

3. Apply what you've learned in 2 in combat, you'll never need to turn FD ON again most likely.

So, some questions regarding the trimmer/AP :-)

 

1. What is the best procedure for applying the rudder from an auto-hover if I wish to laterally align with a target? Right now i'm finding it is actually easier to use the Shkval and turn-to-target than to perform this manually.. The AP always wants to return to the same angle "stored" when AH was engaged, so the procedure as I understand it is to hold the trim, rudder to the desired angle, and release the trim. This gives moderately good results, but tends to throw the trim off in some way. It feels "dirty".

The dirty way is the 'right' way, at least for the game. You can also turn to heading and click the trimmer, but you risk trimming the rudder into a spin. After you've trimmed approximately (actually, very close to) to the desired heading, correct with rudder to hold your aim without further trimming.

3. On the topic of the rudder; Is it normal for the helicopter to want to turn laterally even with no rudder applied? I feel like the #1 reason to trim for me right now is to keep the chopper from turning to the right during level flight. Actually: I'm not CRAZY to want to use the rudder a lot, am I?

Not really, your rudder may be spiking, off-center, or improperly trimmed. You will get yaw left/right as you operate the collective though, and this is normal.

2. Is it normal to constantly feel like the nose wants to go up or down way more than I intend it to? I'm using really small cyclic movements but still I get into situations where I'm trimmed into a corner and I have to reset it or slam into a mountain, and ALWAYS when I reset the trim in such a situation, I better have the cyclic hard forward, or the chopper is going to invert backwards.

This is normal. The 'reset' position is trimmed for more or less 'neutral on the ground', which can cause significant pitch-up at high speed. Trim your cyclic to the required position during flight - just practice until you don't need to reset.

If I were to sum up all my issues, it's that it feels like everything I want to do is attenuated, and everything I don't want to do is accentuated: Nose goes too far, bank doesn't go far enough. I feel like I'm in a constant argument with the helo. As a result I can't really manage anything resembling truly controlled flight. It's maddening.

 

Any pointers on good ways to practice arguing with the AP, since that's apparently a big part of flying this thing?

As I posted at the top of my post ... take it easy, practice flying -only-, no combat, just handling characteristic and standard flight procedure for a while, first with FD ON so you get the feel of how a heli handles, then FD OFF to better understand what the AP is trying to do. Also you need to know details about how the AP operates (for example, if you bank and start a turn that's greater than 3 deg/s, the AP should try to hold the turn rather than returning to original heading ... but you'll still have to trim the heading you roll out on).

The dirty way is the 'right' way, at least for the game. You can also turn to heading and click the trimmer, but you risk trimming the rudder into a spin. After you've trimmed approximately (actually, very close to) to the desired heading, correct with rudder to hold your aim without further trimming.

Another way: Turn off Heading Hold autopilot channel, rudder the nose into the right position and turn HDG Hold back on again. The chopper should keep this heading now. (FD has to be off of course.)

And for the "trimming the rudder into a spin" bug (yes, IMHO this is a bug), read this thread from PeterP, works like a charm: How to unchain the rudder from trim. I have been reworking my HOTAS settings today and I actually just discovered this a couple hours ago. No more trimming my rudder, yay! :)

That would be the 'wrong' way :D

Another way: Turn off Heading Hold autopilot channel, rudder the nose into the right position and turn HDG Hold back on again. The chopper should keep this heading now. (FD has to be off of course.)

It isn't a bug. The rudder is supposed to be trimmable, and unfortunately you do need the ability to trim it - good thing there's a work-around though.

And for the "trimming the rudder into a spin" bug (yes, IMHO this is a bug), read this thread from PeterP, works like a charm: How to unchain the rudder from trim. I have been reworking my HOTAS settings today and I actually just discovered this a couple hours ago. No more trimming my rudder, yay! :)

That would be the 'wrong' way :D

Wrong is such a subjective term. :thumbup:

It isn't a bug. The rudder is supposed to be trimmable, and unfortunately you do need the ability to trim it - good thing there's a work-around though.

Rudder needs to trimmable as in real aircraft or you cant trim for forward flight and hover which both require a small amount of rudder trim to stay stable.

GGTharos:

Be careful, Or the thread police is going to shoot you down!

Please stop recommending practices against standard operating procedures to rookies.

Now listen up you Rookies!

Whatever you do DO NOT TURN ON THE FD! It is against your S-O-Ps. You have been warned! Dont even think about it! You will certainly crash without important AP trajectory control of your helicopter!

Insert sarcastic smiley here. Sorry I dont do them.

Excuse me I'm off to crash some choppers.

Hey Ive got 4 reps. Wonder how long they will last! bye bye reps!

Noooo, stop everyone, let's just not start flame war #326 about the trimmer, FD, SOPs, the autopilot and so on. Just take a deep breath, resist the urge and move on. :book:

Rudder needs to trimmable as in real aircraft or you cant trim for forward flight and hover which both require a small amount of rudder trim to stay stable.

A side note, trimable yaw controls on other helicopters than Ka-50

A side note, trimable yaw controls on other helicopters than Ka-50

 

Just two days ago I spoke to a Mi-2 and Mi-8 mechanic. He told me that their yaw controls are not trimmable (what's the correct term to use?). I was quite surprised as it's not often for Russians to use different implementations between similar airframes.

 

The eurocopters I (kinda) work with don't have trimmable yaw controls either. At least not the EC 135 and EC 145 / BK 117.

Wow, are pilots required to hold the pedals in the correct position all the time by themselves or is there some other kind of system to do it? At least the EC-135 seems to have some kind of autotrim system for the yaw channel according to some EC-135 manual found by quick googling.

Wow, are pilots required to hold the pedals in the correct position all the time by themselves or is there some other kind of system to do it? At least the EC-135 seems to have some kind of autotrim system for the yaw channel according to some EC-135 manual found by quick googling.

Trim systems - other than Ka-50 - ED Forums

Brand New

G'day everyone,

Just thought I would introduce myself. I'm Mclean and have just purchased the Ka-50 Black Shark sim. I'm having an absolute ball at the moment trying to figure everything out.

I can now cold start without looking up anything, which took a while but was fun. I can also use the cannon with the targeting system, however I still have a lot to learn with it. I'm having a few problems hovering but I'm in the process of watching You Tube videos to understand it and the automatic pilot system.

I can't wait to get into multiplayer but I think that's a few weeks off. I've been flying Il2 and CloD since it's beginning so I'm fairly familiar with that. This is a greater challenge but looking forward to it.

Anyway I'm off to learn some more. See you online soon.

Doesn anyone know where I can get an image of the cockpit with all the buttons, levers etc tagged?

Cheers,

Mclean :thumbup:

Search the forum for "Interactive Cockpit Trainer". While this isn't an image, it might guide you through the learning process.

Or just activate the "Cockpit Labels" (I think it's named that way, but I might be wrong) option to show the labels when hovering with the cursor. That's the way I do it.

Hi, Chopper newbie here (fixed wing veteran), I have a couple of questions:

1-Why do the blades of my Ka50 break in flight for apparently no reason?

Usually after the warning lights beeps uncontrollably - the master one and the one that is refered to in the manual as being the ''Maximum allowed IAS exceeded''

2-Also, sometimes the RPM dial drops below the minimum value and it breaks the blades too... what am I doing wrong?

3-I am currently flying with the 1.0 Russian version of the game, should I patch it or wait until I don't need the tutorial tracks anymore? Also which patch should I apply? 1.0.2 directly?

Fly 300km/h and check your blades with the F2 view. It's self explanatory. Otherwise search the forums. This has been explained 10000 times.

If the MAX IAS light is flashing, reduce collective and SLOWLY pitch up 5 degrees until it go out.

Any sudden inputs will probably cause the blades to clash. So be gentle.

If your RPM drops below minimum you are putting too much load on the rotor. Reduce blade pitch by reducing collective or don't do any aerobatics.

Use at least 1.02, and if you can. Upgrade to Black Shark 2 and apply the latest patch.