I find it tough to fly DCS without VR

Sent my Rift away for replacement 12 days ago, new one hasn't even been sent yet (going to have to get on to Oculus support this evening). UPS messed up and left it on a shelf for 3 days, which didn't help.

Anyway, I thought I'd use the time to learn some of the systems and procedures on aircraft I don't regularly fly - which is a lot, considering I have all but 2 of them.

However, after experiencing VR I find TrackIR to be totally unacceptable. It's awful! You know how you feel when you fly a sim without head tracking after years with TrackIR? Well it feel worse than that. That's without considering the horrendous fish-eye lens effect when you move your head sideways.

Due to this, I have flown only once since I sent the Rift. Having said that, I did really enjoy the flight and there were a couple of "whoops" as I soared through the Caucasus at low altitude, often upside down :D

But it was still nothing like VR.

I also spent some time yesterday with the fast mission builder, which I had never used before, and I am very impressed. Some of the scenarios were just excellent and were stuffed full of activity. Did look a bit strange seeing A-10's with Luftwaffe crosses and Ukrainian roundels on them, but so what?

I started a mission for every module and they all looked like great missions. Mind you, the Spitfire would have had a hard time facing the MiG-29s the enemy had, and twice I found myself in a helicopter on CAS in zero visibility. :doh:

So I will be spending a lot of time in that when my Rift comes.

Just pray your VR headset doesn't break - believe me, you will suffer without it! :pain:

Last two days I thought I give the 2d monitor a try after a month with the rift...

While using the monitor isnt that bad... TIR is really bad compared to RIFT Tracking... A bit right and left is not a problem, but if you want to look arround you in a dogfight (while its hard work in the rift), its really wierd after you had the VR experience. Sure, you can tweak your curves etc, but when you are used to 1:1 tracking of the rift its just wierd.

Loved my TIR for 6 years... But now I cannot stand it anymore. :(

One of the reasons why I got it from a store near me. They will replace the unit while under warranty. (had to do it once already...)

Best of luck for a fast RMA process.

Flying without VR is like flying without a joystick 20yrs ago........just doesn't cut it

I retired my trusty Track IR about a month or so ago.

I tried flying on a 2d monitor with it again just to see, and could not stand it.

Never again for me.

No matter how much I love a flight sim, or any game for that matter now, if it does not have VR support I won't be running it.

^^ this. Totally agree.

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Sent my Rift away for replacement 12 days ago, new one hasn't even been sent yet (going to have to get on to Oculus support this evening).

So, a little tangential, but out of curiosity, what went wrong with the Rift, and how was the experience of dealing with Oculus support? Lots of hassle? Long wait times? Or plain sailing? etc.

Nah, I can play DCS and other simulators with Oculus or TIR and switch back and forth without issues.

The first time I launched DCS on a 30" monitor after playing it for a month or two only in the Rift, I was surprised how much more detail I can see, and how much quality is lost in the Rift. I could actually see and recognize what I'm shooting at! Could dogfight easily without a neck strain too.

VR is a promising technology, but it's not there yet...

So, a little tangential, but out of curiosity, what went wrong with the Rift, and how was the experience of dealing with Oculus support? Lots of hassle? Long wait times? Or plain sailing? etc.

Oculus Support were great. I had a couple of weeks worth of conversation with them and each time they answered my mails within hours.

I actually thought that the problem (HDMI disconnects for a couple of seconds each time, about once a day) was my USB drivers after I had upgraded my hardware and reinstalled Windows 10. I told them they could close the ticket, but they asked if I minded them keeping it open and doing some investigating with diagnostics etc.

I told them it was okay, of course, and next thing, after I sent the diagnostic results in, they are saying I need to send it back for replacement.

They said I could send it back any time within the next month, but I sent it straight away. UPS were awful. No receipt when I dropped it off at a local AP, and then they left it on a shelf for the rest of the week, until I contacted their support to find out why the tracking wasn't updating.

It's been at ARVATO in Holland since Monday and no word on the return item. Oculus don't deal with the hardware replacement themselves, ARVATO is a sub-contractor who also works for distribution for catalogues etc.

Hold on....

I sent a request to Oculus support 15 minutes ago and just received a response from the rep - that's how quick it is these days! Although it isn't helpful as this person obviously hasn't read through the messages to see what is going on! They asked me to let them know if my replacement wasn't sent within 3 working days.

So there ya go :)

Edit: Having read through the rep's response, I would say she is being quite obstinate. I never understood why people have been losing their temper about Oculus support, as they have always been really good with me, but now I am beginning to understand. This person is either very dumb or being deliberately obstinate.

Oculus Support were great. I had a couple of weeks worth of conversation with them and each time they answered my mails within hours.

 

I actually thought that the problem (HDMI disconnects for a couple of seconds each time, about once a day) was my USB drivers after I had upgraded my hardware and reinstalled Windows 10. I told them they could close the ticket, but they asked if I minded them keeping it open and doing some investigating with diagnostics etc.

 

I told them it was okay, of course, and next thing, after I sent the diagnostic results in, they are saying I need to send it back for replacement.

 

They said I could send it back any time within the next month, but I sent it straight away. UPS were awful. No receipt when I dropped it off at a local AP, and then they left it on a shelf for the rest of the week, until I contacted their support to find out why the tracking wasn't updating.

 

It's been at ARVATO in Holland since Monday and no word on the return item. Oculus don't deal with the hardware replacement themselves, ARVATO is a sub-contractor who also works for distribution for catalogues etc.

 

Hold on....

 

I sent a request to Oculus support 15 minutes ago and just received a response from the rep - that's how quick it is these days! Although it isn't helpful as this person obviously hasn't read through the messages to see what is going on! They asked me to let them know if my replacement wasn't sent within 3 working days.

 

So there ya go :)

 

Edit: Having read through the rep's response, I would say she is being quite obstinate. I never understood why people have been losing their temper about Oculus support, as they have always been really good with me, but now I am beginning to understand. This person is either very dumb or being deliberately obstinate.

Thanks for sharing.

Luck of the draw -- even the most streamlined, corporatified, complex bureacracies are made up of cogs that are people, and not all cogs are equal!

Good to know the highs are good, though ... at least, on your side of the pond!

Nah, I can play DCS and other simulators with Oculus or TIR and switch back and forth without issues.

The first time I launched DCS on a 30" monitor after playing it for a month or two only in the Rift, I was surprised how much more detail I can see, and how much quality is lost in the Rift. I could actually see and recognize what I'm shooting at! Could dogfight easily without a neck strain too.

 

VR is a promising technology, but it's not there yet...

Agreed. The rift is awesome but it is not the be all end all of display technology. I still enjoy flying on my 40" 4k monitor quite a bit.

Agreed, I find it really hard to fly without the Rift now.

TrackIR doesn't cut it anymore now that I've been spoiled.

I just want better resolution in my Rift :)

It really depends.

I find that when you fly with a group of people who are not using a rift, and flying a mission that has been designed and tested on a 2D monitor, you may be putting yourself at a significant disadvantage compared to your group.

-You can get a framerate disadvantage from a complex mission that brings a 1080ti + i7 7700k to its knees in VR, but performs OK in 2D.

-You can get a threat awareness disadvantage from not being able to spot targets as easily if labels are off.

-Sometimes you need to see things, or click on the desktop (maps, data, flight plan, external programs to manage radios for FC3 aircraft) on the fly, outside of what the sim can currently provide with what you have imported into the kneeboard as your only reference device. Looking through the slit under the rift at a 2nd monitor gets tiresome, especially if your face shape blocks most of the slit and you have to lift the goggles a bit.

For those reasons (and I'm sure there are more), a 2D monitor is still a useful tool to have and use in your simpit arsenal (especially if its a nice 40"+ 4K display).

There are plenty of times when using a rift is acceptable, but sometimes its current limitations can handicap you as a pilot, depending on who you're flying with and what you're flying.

Happily will never be an issue for me - I love to click real switches, read a real kneeboard etc.

Thanks for sharing.

 

Luck of the draw -- even the most streamlined, corporatified, complex bureacracies are made up of cogs that are people, and not all cogs are equal!

 

Good to know the highs are good, though ... at least, on your side of the pond!

Well I got the standard "please give us time to look into this" response last night and this morning have a "Your new Rift is on its way!" mail in my inbox, but on checking the order, it has only been allocated and hasn't even been despatched as yet. Order date is given as 12th April.

I'm pleased that I'll be getting a new Rift, but I really hope the new unit is okay. I don't want to go through this unpleasant process again.

Oh, and whoever edited the title of this thread without a word to me - do you find this acceptable behaviour? Because I don't.

I´ve been using VR for about 4 months. Started with P3D and X-Plane and since last week with DCS. The experience is MUCH better in DCS and the performance I get is quite good.

There are, of course, naysayers, but I agree completely that simulations in general are the killer-app for VR. It is impossible for me as well to go back to 2D. Of course there is space for improvements, but the Rift has been the biggest innovation since I started simming in 1996.

I may be little less competitive, but I am there, sitting inside the cockpit. That immersion factor is MUCH more important to me.

Flying without VR feels like going back to F22-Lightning II or FS 5.1.

I also think it would be difficult to go back. DCS is firmly a VR title for me now. Yes, it was a bit of getting used to, going from the crystal clarity of a 4k monitor to the comparatively blurry Rift, but actually being immersed in a cockpit and seeing in three dimensions more than makes up for it. I've honestly not noticed any limitations. I actually think I have better situational awareness and have noticed no disadvantages in multiplayer.

When I switched back to 2d screen in the M2000c, I often found myself still needing to use the zoom in on the cockpit to click specific buttons or identify other aircrafts...

I dont experience performance issue at the moment. But if a mission is that smashed full of AI that it only runs "OK" on normal systems... Then I think the mission wants to do a bit too much ;-).

My current main problem with VR:

- This slow, FPS Depending Zoom momentary button, would it be so difficult to be able to assign zoom to an axis like in 2d mode? :)

- The very anoying TrackIR Device disconnect, connect notification which will momentarily screw my RIFT Screen. (TrackIR plugged out and software disabled... any clues?

- This system locked Num5 recenter. Really anoying when you try to use the NumPad to enter flightplans... -_-

- Huge labels (if for some reason I get labels at all ;-) )

swissMAG the disconnect problem is a common one and is fixable for sure perhaps create a new thread and people can help

I sold my Trackir kit last weekend :)

I think thge best point some have made is that if you do go with VR alot of the game becomes off limits because of massive fps problems in some of the more demanding missions. Still personally I cant go back to TIR now, the screen just seems too far away and the better graphics are irrelevent, VR puts me in the AC. Maybe if I had a big ass screen though! The main problem with VR at this stage are performance problems and throwing GPU/at the problem wont help you that much. Its interesting to wonder if performance will ever be solved short of these devs or a whole new team building a whole new game. Explosions desperately need to be optimized! Other flight sims have the same problem CPU and GPU is not optimized, so dont make the mistake of thinking a new card will solve all your problems, unless its really time to get one. Thing is though in VR I'm just happy taking off, flying around, attacking a target I have placed on some distant mountain via the mission editor and then flying home again. I dont really need fancy missions at this point, as I suck anyhow!

I long for the days when we all have VR though and when it goes mainstream as then it will no doubt get more love.

My current main problem with VR:

- This slow, FPS Depending Zoom momentary button, would it be so difficult to be able to assign zoom to an axis like in 2d mode? :)

Right on. Due to the low resolution of the Rift, I often have to use VR Zoom, and I find the current implementation aggravating. It is so slow: waste of time and even somewhat disorientating. It should be much, much faster or even instantaneous (I believe there's research supporting this). I really hope ED will improve it, should be a pretty easy tweak.

And yes, for me now, despite the shortcomings, it's Rift or nothing. I hope ED gives VR the support it deserves. Can't wait for 4k headsets with fps-saving foveated rendering...

Nah, I can play DCS and other simulators with Oculus or TIR and switch back and forth without issues.

The first time I launched DCS on a 30" monitor after playing it for a month or two only in the Rift, I was surprised how much more detail I can see, and how much quality is lost in the Rift. I could actually see and recognize what I'm shooting at! Could dogfight easily without a neck strain too.

 

VR is a promising technology, but it's not there yet...

Exactly why it's not worth the money yet, not to mention there are too many other things you can't see that you may want to reference. I can't see spending that much money to revert to less quality.

Exactly why it's not worth the money yet, not to mention there are too many other things you can't see that you may want to reference. I can't see spending that much money to revert to less quality.

Have you tried it yet ? or your statement comes form reading the forums ??

Exactly why it's not worth the money yet, not to mention there are too many other things you can't see that you may want to reference. I can't see spending that much money to revert to less quality.

I have never tried a new VR set, people make it look good but as to how practical it really is or even work with home built cockpits like this A-10C ........

Also as you can see in the video below it would be impossible to find the correct switches without looking.

........how do you find all the switches and knobs?

It might work well for other games but not sims in my opinion.

I haven't started yet but will eventually build a home-built cockpit and don't see how a VR set will work at all.

I have never tried a new VR set, people make it look good but as to how practical it really is or even work with home built cockpits like this A-10C ........

 

 

 

 

 

 

........how do you find all the switches and knobs?

 

It might work well for other games but not sims in my opinion.

This is where the accuracy of cockpit models is going to become very important. Modules have not had to worry about accuracy before VR came along. They just had to look the part. But that luxury is gone now and there isn't any going back.

From time to time there are threads with VR users stating that the cockpits are off. Usually its brushed aside but I can 100% tell you there are numerous things off and I'm not referring to just small inaccuracies. It runs the whole gamut from buttons, switches, dials, panels, pilot bodies, joysticks etc.

Photogrammetry should be the absolute starting point for all future cockpit models. This would make the cockpits line up correctly for those building pits using measurements sourced online.

There are enough pit and working with the real item nerds on this site that a photogrammetry db of cockpits and other items could be built.

Frankly, given the choice of a sim pit or VR I would choose VR every time, even in it's current form. We have to stop asking the question "How is a VR headset going to work with my simpit?". The real question should be, "will my old equipment still be relevant when using VR?"

As VR advances, this will be even more the case.

BSS Sniper, judging from your avatar, you are a pilot on a large cabin business jet? Your response is a little puzzling to me because every pilot I have spoken to who has tried the Rift in DCS has been thoroughly impressed by it. Personally I have had the Rift for a year now. I won't fly DCS without it. In 2D it is just a flat experience in comparison. The same goes with all the other sims I spend time with.