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Old 05-20-2020, 06:33 PM   #1
Diesel_Thunder
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Default Using takeoff rudder assist

Good day all. Thought I would try the Mustang today with all rudder assist turned off. Bad idea on my part, every time I tried to take off, I end up as a flaming wreck off the side of the runway.

Part of my problem lies in that I don't have rudder pedals. My HOTAS has a rudder rocker on the backside of the throttle (see attached), that has 3/4" of total travel, 3/8" in either direction. Works well for taxi, but I don't think it has the precision that a set of pedals have. I can never get the right amount of rudder for any corrections during takeoff, or too much.

Until I get a set of pedals, I probably should leave the rudder assist on? Thoughts from the forum?
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:37 PM   #2
ricktoberfest
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Originally Posted by Diesel_Thunder View Post
Good day all. Thought I would try the Mustang today with all rudder assist turned off. Bad idea on my part, every time I tried to take off, I end up as a flaming wreck off the side of the runway.

Part of my problem lies in that I don't have rudder pedals. My HOTAS has a rudder rocker on the backside of the throttle (see attached), that has 3/4" of total travel, 3/8" in either direction. Works well for taxi, but I don't think it has the precision that a set of pedals have. I can never get the right amount of rudder for any corrections during takeoff, or too much.

Until I get a set of pedals, I probably should leave the rudder assist on? Thoughts from the forum?

Or you could set the rudder trim before takeoff
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:59 PM   #3
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A few things and tips for you. I'm not the hugest piston guy in DCS, but everyone loves these old crates.

For starters, I honestly find that take off assist to cause more issues than it solves. Especially for something like the Mustang. The Mustang is super easy on take off and very forgiving on how you trim her up. Give her some rudder and aileron trim (varies depending on weather and TOW). Just engage the tail wheel lock and pull the stick back some to make sure it commands as much authority as possible.

It could help to write down what kind of settings work best, especially engine settings. It can be kind of a pain on a stick's twist axis as opposed to pedals, but the P-51 is a gem. You'll get the hang of it.
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Old 05-21-2020, 11:54 PM   #4
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Thanks for the input everyone. I do want to note that I am setting rudder trim prior to taking the runway. Sometimes I also put some nose down trim if my wings have weapons mounted. I always lock the tail wheel prior to throttle up. And I ease into the power as I start, all the way to 61" MP.

Fishbed, I don't have pedals or a twist stick. I have a rudder rocker on the backside of the throttle that is suppose to be used by the middle and ring fingers of the users left hand (picture in my first post). A twist stick would be better than this thing.

With or without the rudder assist seems to give me the same result. As I roll down the runway, I tend to drift left of center, which I try to correct, and typically do. Once the tail comes up, I get a bigger pull to the left. With a little forward stick to keep the mains on the runway (still around 100 kts), I attempt to correct the left pull. I'll either under correct and end up in the grass or over correct and end up in the grass on the other side of the runway. By this point I've lost control, and end up with a wrecked aircraft. It certainly feels like I don't have the fine control over the rudder that I need with my current HOTAS.

The P-51 is my absolute favorite warbird. I'm starting to think I may have to shelve this bird until I get better hardware. I'll post a track either tonight or tomorrow when I fly. Maybe that will shed some light on things.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:21 AM   #5
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I found it pretty easy to deal with using my twcs paddles for rudders. Adding in 6 degrees of right rudder trim helps a lot. Also dont forget to keep BACK PRESSURE on the stick to plant your tailwheel. If you do those two things and gently throttle up (you dont even need full throttle) its pretty well behaved.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_Thunder View Post
Thanks for the input everyone. I do want to note that I am setting rudder trim prior to taking the runway. Sometimes I also put some nose down trim if my wings have weapons mounted. I always lock the tail wheel prior to throttle up. And I ease into the power as I start, all the way to 61" MP.

Fishbed, I don't have pedals or a twist stick. I have a rudder rocker on the backside of the throttle that is suppose to be used by the middle and ring fingers of the users left hand (picture in my first post). A twist stick would be better than this thing.

With or without the rudder assist seems to give me the same result. As I roll down the runway, I tend to drift left of center, which I try to correct, and typically do. Once the tail comes up, I get a bigger pull to the left. With a little forward stick to keep the mains on the runway (still around 100 kts), I attempt to correct the left pull. I'll either under correct and end up in the grass or over correct and end up in the grass on the other side of the runway. By this point I've lost control, and end up with a wrecked aircraft. It certainly feels like I don't have the fine control over the rudder that I need with my current HOTAS.

The P-51 is my absolute favorite warbird. I'm starting to think I may have to shelve this bird until I get better hardware. I'll post a track either tonight or tomorrow when I fly. Maybe that will shed some light on things.
Is it axis type rocker you have there ?
I suggest to set small dead zone + small curvature for this axis.
Then try to not push stick forward, tail will com up by it self, then don't push stick but put small back pressure on it.
If you force tail up the left pull is quite strong.
You can leave small back pressure on stick, then you can lift off at 3 point atitude.
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:42 PM   #7
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More right rudder trim.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:40 PM   #8
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Here are three tracks from a mission I made, takeoff from runway hot. Full load of rockets on the wings. No rudder assist or auto rudder, 6º of rudder trim set. Not looking to good, never made it off the runway.
Attached Files
File Type: trk P51 no assist.trk (162.1 KB, 5 views)
File Type: trk P51 no assist 2.trk (117.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: trk P51 no assist 3.trk (119.7 KB, 5 views)
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Last edited by Diesel_Thunder; 05-24-2020 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:23 AM   #9
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1st thing which i noticed.
Pre open Coolant radiator for high power, heavy weight take off.
Stick, you should put stick full back,but once you reach full power you should center stick.
You hold stick until almost 100 mph, then you rapidly moving stick to center, this rapid movement not helping.
Try to let go stick at 50mph. thn wait for tail lift, then plane will tell you when it wants to take off.
With that load, im assuming that it would be something above 120mph, but i barely use speedometer in take off, so i may be wrong here.
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Old 05-23-2020, 03:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grafspee View Post
1st thing which i noticed.
Pre open Coolant radiator for high power, heavy weight take off.
Stick, you should put stick full back,but once you reach full power you should center stick.
You hold stick until almost 100 mph, then you rapidly moving stick to center, this rapid movement not helping.
Try to let go stick at 50mph. thn wait for tail lift, then plane will tell you when it wants to take off.
With that load, im assuming that it would be something above 120mph, but i barely use speedometer in take off, so i may be wrong here.
Graf, thank you for your feedback. I did the takeoff from runway as a quick way to get to the heart of my problems and have a short track to upload. In my practice missions I normally cold start from parking and set both radiators wide open before startup. They stay that way until after I am in the air (whenever I do get off the ground).

I'll practice with locking the tail wheel and then centering the stick as I roll.

A few questions:

Once the tail comes up, do I need to use a little forward stick to keep the mains on the ground to build up more speed?

Lift off speed should be around 150 MPH to avoid lifting off in ground effect, correct?
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