SD-10 downgrade - Page 8 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-24-2020, 01:31 AM   #71
Tiger-II
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
The first one mentions SD-10A on JF-17 but I am not sure how accurate that is, the paragraph itself doesn’t make too many distinctions, and who knows the source, it seems it’s a collection of data from forums.

For the second, it’s not stated where the 21km comes from, but magazines such as Air Force monthly and Jane’s are cited as places were the information may have come from. Whatever the source it must be either inaccurate or a misinterpretation of numbers given, as that is an extremely short range. For example it gives 50km for LD-10 and 60 for DK-10, both seem more realistic but couldn’t possibly outrange the air to air variant using the 30,000 foot co altitude baseline test used for the 70km stated range.

It’s stated range is 70km, as for it being A model or not, I guess that is up in the air more, but I would bet firmly on it being just SD-10 and not SD-10A

I'm not saying it is right or wrong as source; I'm just posting because you asked.


Deka say they have good sources for data, and I have no reason to doubt them. Based on what they've posted in the past, I have even less reason to doubt them.


Fact: we do not have access to real missile data.


Fact: we can infer performance, the same way ED does: CFD. I know there are people out there who know how to do this, and can do the modelling independently.


I wasn't intending to cause trouble with my post, because I do think there is something like a bug here, beyond the obvious.


I flew the F-18 today with a friend in MP. We fired AIM-120B, C, AIM-7M and AIM-9X and we saw some weird things.


I had one missile track right over the target at 80000 ft. I was flying the F-18, and fired an AIM-120B. Something is very, very wrong with missiles and tracking.


When it comes to missiles generally in DCS, I'm only interested in two things: that they are modelled as accurately as declassified/public information allows, and that they actually conform to the laws of physics.


The Phoenix has 150 NM range? I don't care. The Tomcat has a RADAR to match? I don't care. I'm out-gunned, out-ranged, and out-classed? I don't care.


I only care that it is ACCURATE. If a missile is supposed to have 50 NM range, I expect to be able to achieve it. Not some gamified version because a bunch of people want to fly unrealistically.


Want "balance"? Fly the same aircraft types against each other. Perfection.



__________________
Intel 80386 with 80387 Math Co-Processor | 16 Mb | Color VGA
"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

Last edited by Tiger-II; 05-24-2020 at 02:06 AM.
Tiger-II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 02:35 AM   #72
Tiger-II
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeriaGloria View Post
The first one mentions SD-10A on JF-17 but I am not sure how accurate that is, the paragraph itself doesn’t make too many distinctions, and who knows the source, it seems it’s a collection of data from forums.

For the second, it’s not stated where the 21km comes from, but magazines such as Air Force monthly and Jane’s are cited as places were the information may have come from. Whatever the source it must be either inaccurate or a misinterpretation of numbers given, as that is an extremely short range. For example it gives 50km for LD-10 and 60 for DK-10, both seem more realistic but couldn’t possibly outrange the air to air variant using the 30,000 foot co altitude baseline test used for the 70km stated range.

It’s stated range is 70km, as for it being A model or not, I guess that is up in the air more, but I would bet firmly on it being just SD-10 and not SD-10A
Actual photos follow: https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-...mozTocId835567

SD-10A.


Interestingly, the visual model of the DCS SD-10 shows SD-10A as the model identification/serial number. The tooltip text/other parts of the sim just say "SD-10", but it would appear that the real aircraft actually has SD-10A missiles.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/a...-defense-gaps/

Quote:
April 10, 2019

Claims that Pakistan tested the latest Chinese PL-15 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) appear inaccurate, and Tufail thinks the combination of the F-16 armed with the AIM-120 missile and the SD-10A-equipped JF-17 remains effective in light of current threats.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-PL...long-with-HMDS

Quote:
PL-12/SD-10, claimed to use the seeker and other components from the Russian R-77 AMRAAM-ski.

R-77 has speed of 4 mach and can operate at altitudes as 25000 m high, a firing range of 110 km, its multi-purpose target engagement capabilities and resistance against countermeasures are among the best in the world.

Credited with competitive performance against the AMRAAM, the PL-12 has a range of approximately 100 kilometers.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0range&f=false

Scroll for picture. Missile states SD-10A.

http://defenseupdates.blogspot.com/2...at-zhuhai.html

I think I found the source for the 21 km figure...ALTITUDE

Quote:
Range: 100 km
Altitude: 21 km
http://chinese-military-aviation.blo...issiles-i.html

Read the following very carefully.

Quote:
PL-12 completed its development test in December 2004 and was certified in 2005.

Its export version is called SD-10

(SD-10A as the improved version)

and was first revealed to the public during the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. Currently it is in the service with J-8F/DF, J-10/A/B/C, J-11B/BH, J-15 and Su-30MK2.

In addition SD-10A is being carried by JF-17 currently in service with PAF.

Some specifications of SD-10 (((NOT 'A' MODEL))): length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, range 60-70km.
So...

SD-10 is the original model, NOT carried by the JF-17.

LD-10 is SD-10 derivative.

JF-17 carries the SD-10A ("improved version") but no details as to what/how.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/brief...issile.114828/

Quote:
After SD-10 develops successfully, China continues to make the improvement, developed the SD-10A air-to-air missile, SD-10A sharpened missile's maneuver capability successfully, simultaneously strengthened the shell body intensity, the weight also increased to the nearly 200 kilograms.

Basic SD-10 (not A model) apparently weighs 180 kg.


http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspo...ium-range.html


Buried in the text is this:


Quote:
Single Shot Kill Probability: ≥ 0.80 (fighter like targets)
__________________
Intel 80386 with 80387 Math Co-Processor | 16 Mb | Color VGA
"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

Last edited by Tiger-II; 05-24-2020 at 03:28 AM.
Tiger-II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 03:33 AM   #73
AeriaGloria
Senior Member
 
AeriaGloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LA
Posts: 2,642
Default

Tiger, I totally agree with you on realism and balance, and you have found some valuable info. Looking at the 3D model is such a brilliant way to find out. I concede to you I guess it is SD-10A. And as you said, there is no evidence of what changed. Very interesting, I still don’t trust most of those sources but the ingame model is irrefutable proof.

For example that PDEF source is just the guys personal analysis, there are no sources given. Everything but the encyclopedia seems to indicate the weight is 180kg(encyclopedia states 150, must be a typo), so I’m not sure about what they say about weight increase and strengthening.

But interesting that it’s likely to actually be SD-10A! I wonder if it’s a case since only one kind has been exported, most people don’t bother to say A

Last edited by AeriaGloria; 05-24-2020 at 11:22 AM.
AeriaGloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 03:40 AM   #74
SDsc0rch
Senior Member
 
SDsc0rch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,484
Default

this fkkg SUXXX

this is TERRIBLE news!! >: (

let us mod the LUA files the way we want to! but don't FORCE US ALL TO BE HANDICAPPED!!!
__________________
i7-4790K | Asus Sabertooth Z97 MkI | 16Gb DDR3 | EVGA GTX 980 | TM Warthog | MFG Crosswind | Panasonic TC-58AX800U

SDsc0rch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 07:04 AM   #75
hamza_Khan
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 69
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger-II View Post
JF-17 carries the SD-10A ("improved version") but no details as to what/how.
Can Confirm, Picture from 2018 Promotional Video:

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sd10a.png
Views:	154
Size:	1.46 MB
ID:	236938  
hamza_Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 11:23 AM   #76
AeriaGloria
Senior Member
 
AeriaGloria's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: LA
Posts: 2,642
Default

God right in plain sight, screw my reading issues!
AeriaGloria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 12:44 PM   #77
shaHeen-1
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 898
Default

Wasted opportunity. Shoulda written AIM120D on it instead.
shaHeen-1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 09:23 PM   #78
Breeze[Thunder 69]
Junior Member
 
Breeze[Thunder 69]'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 45
Default

the SD-10 is better than the AIM-120C why are people looking for a balance
Breeze[Thunder 69] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2020, 11:31 PM   #79
Tiger-II
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeze[Thunder 69] View Post
the SD-10 is better than the AIM-120C why are people looking for a balance

I know... I'm getting a headache thinking about it.
__________________
Intel 80386 with 80387 Math Co-Processor | 16 Mb | Color VGA
"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.
Tiger-II is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:30 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.