SD-10 nerfed too much

First of all i need to thanks Fox for communicating with us it make me happy cuz i dont see anyone from Deka except him is talking to us .

 

my Question Fox for u 100% this missile or any missile perform better in higher altitude no argue about that but the lower altitude its seems to be spooky a bit for me sorry cuz from what i saw in so many fights since the last Patch the missile is not dragging enough for example in angel 10 lets create this situation i shoot from angel 10 to a target flying at angel 15 at 8nm separation if we are talking about missile with 2 stage motorize with 0.9 mach speed at launch .. do u think its possible or logic that the target just went cold and drag the missile to its death and we are talking about 8nm separation cuz if i did that to aim-120 family i am dead the missile is losing energy so fast dont mention that from what i saw also detection area is small with less resistance to chaff SD-10 got tricked very easy but so can be honest if u support the missile it will act that stupid but still it can be chaffed more than before ( correct me if i am wrong about this matter cuz maybe i am angry about what happened to SD-10 and i am imagining stuff ) but what i know for sure 100% cuz we train every week in TAW and we do a lot of test i can't launch SD-10 from 30nm at 40,000 ft anymore this option is over

8NM @ 10Kft is just around the NEZ, the target will fall in great danger if the SD-10 is not being chaffed, but it's still about how well and how quickly the target react. If the target started the run at the time you launch(usually happens in test not in real fight which both you and the target is perpared for the missile shot), it may still escape in a very narrow window.

Note that the reaction time in real fight is different than in the test, and 2 secs delay in this kind of situation can have great impact on hit or miss.

---------

The overall looking down penalty has been increased some time ago, this impact to all A2A missile, since SD-10 chaff resistance is poorer than AIM-120C(this is one good reason why SD-10 is stated has a rank between 120B and 120C), it will eat chaff more easily than AIM120.

The overall looking down penalty has been increased some time ago, this impact to all A2A missile, since SD-10 chaff resistance is poorer than AIM-120C(this is one good reason why SD-10 is stated has a rank between 120B and 120C), it will eat chaff more easily than AIM120.

While I understand clutter effects with search RADAR, are AA missiles affected in the same way?

The RADAR in the missile is smaller, I think they use higher frequencies, and they're looking at a target much closer, and in a narrower field of view. While they may struggle in some situations with ground clutter, I'd suggest it is less than a large RADAR would "see".

In all my tests I'm over water for exactly this reason (to eliminate ground clutter).

While I understand clutter effects with search RADAR, are AA missiles affected in the same way?

 

The RADAR in the missile is smaller, I think they use higher frequencies, and they're looking at a target much closer, and in a narrower field of view. While they may struggle in some situations with ground clutter, I'd suggest it is less than a large RADAR would "see".

 

In all my tests I'm over water for exactly this reason (to eliminate ground clutter).

The ARH seeker also suffer from notching like the airborne radar in DCS(not in another game which name should not be mentioned).

When the following 3 conditions are met, the ARH will lose track(near 100%):

1. Seeker look down situation(missile higher than target).

2. Target near beaming.

3. Chaff is dropped.

Chaff is mostly accepted by seeker when target is near beaming, the accept angle is related with missile chaff resistance value defined in LUA.(So chaff SD-10 is more easily than 120, since the chaff acceptance angle is larger)

The ARH seeker also suffer from notching like the airborne radar in DCS(not in another game which name should not be mentioned).

 

When the following 3 conditions are met, the ARH will lose track(near 100%):

1. Seeker look down situation(missile higher than target).

2. Target near beaming.

3. Chaff is dropped.

 

Chaff is mostly accepted by seeker when target is near beaming, the accept angle is related with missile chaff resistance value defined in LUA.(So chaff SD-10 is more easily than 120, since the chaff acceptance angle is larger)

If you look at my tracks, you will see most missiles are not spoofed by chaff. Instead, they fly off to the side inexplicably.

watch this tacview

 

2 lofting shoot 2 standard shoot

 

first test 1 lofting 30nm

sec test 2 lofting 27nm

 

first test 1 standard shoot 30nm

sec test 2 Standard shoot 27nm

 

i dont know how to creat trk file cuz when i open track file i see only multiplayer trk files

Slightly off topic how do you loft the SD-10? By pitching up or does it actually do it by its self?

If you look at my tracks, you will see most missiles are not spoofed by chaff. Instead, they fly off to the side inexplicably.

I know the situation you described, but I'll look into the ACMI first for sure .

Slightly off topic how do you loft the SD-10? By pitching up or does it actually do it by its self?

Range >30km

Pitch angle >8deg

As foxwxl said - you must pitch the aircraft.

Accelerate as fast as possible (I aim for > Mach 0.95), climb above the target (I aim for a minimum of 30000 ft), pitch up, fire.

As foxwxl said - you must pitch the aircraft.

 

 

Accelerate as fast as possible (I aim for > Mach 0.95), climb above the target (I aim for a minimum of 30000 ft), pitch up, fire.

If U help the missile passing Mach 1, It may reward U with a better terminal speed .:D

Absolutely!

The one based on Sparrow(Aspide) is PL11, which is nothing to do with PL12(export version renamed SD-10).

Let me re phrase. The Sparrow was sold to British as Skyflash, which was licensed to Italy as aspide, which was licensed to China as PL-11. PL-11 was eventually paired with AMR-1 active seeker and had its fins and control scheme changed becoming PL-12/SD-10. However the body of the missile in shape (not internal structure) is still identical to Sparrow/Aspide/Skyflash/PL-11, isn’t that correct? That if you were to remove the wings and tail of Sparrow/Skyflash/Aspide/PL-11 along with PL-12/SD-10, both would have identical shapes, even if things like panels or other slight differences, the two bodies would have the same drag. But of course since PL-12/SD-10 has smaller wings and tail, it is lower in drag, but only for that reason. They are all 3.7 meters long but 203mm in diameter

I’m not trying to say anything about it’s performance, just that it’s lineage does go back to Sparrow, and i am not surprised it does better at high altitude when it’s 50kg lighter then AIM-7, but still suffers at low altitude becuase of that thick body

And everyone talking about Chizh CFD, I’m pretty sure none of the missiles are perfectly accurate to CFD for Cx0, if you look at the LUA there is four cx0 values if I read it right, hard to make it correct at all speeds with just four values. The missile API is limited, and for example if we compare nighthawks CFD of missiles, some are close but none perfect match. If you look at how it was before ED suggested the changes it was even farther off https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4346803&postcount=14 And as Anarchy posted, I see no speedbreakes around Mach 2

I read it as (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no aeronautical engineer):

M 2.0 and above slightly less drag in game vs CFD

M2.0 to M1,0 significantly higher drag in game vs CFD with a brick wall at M1.0

below M1.0 ...who cares basically

I read it as (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no aeronautical engineer):

 

M 2.0 and above slightly less drag in game vs CFD

 

M2.0 to M1,0 significantly higher drag in game vs CFD with a brick wall at M1.0

 

below M1.0 ...who cares basically

I see what you mean, you meant as comparison to CFD curve. Well all I can say is the same, you can’t add a perfect Cx0 curve or it’s extremely hard. Deka has tried and ED has tried, I think that says more about the missile API being too hard to be able to apply its four cx0 values for the whole speed then it does about this particular missile implementation. I don’t think you would find any missile with cx0 values the same as CFD as they are in game, they can’t just put in the CFD curve, they have to use the four LUA files and find a “happy medium” that averages out and gives the most accurate overall performance, but unless there’s an even bigger aerodynamic over haul I don’t think you will ever see CFD cx0 curve match perfectly in game.

Chizh showed that it is almost twice as close to CFD then it was before, I think that’s a remarkable improvement for cx0 coefficient curve

Here’s some pictures of PL-11, PL-12/SD-10, Skyflash, and Sparrow, with people for scale. The angles and lenses are all different of course, but hopefully you can see how the PL-12/SD-10 is an evolution of the same design, with the same dimensions of the missile body, but with lower drag from smaller fins and the reverse flight control configuration. Hopefully you can see that the bodies are dimension wise identical(3.7m length by 203mm diameter), but it’s really easiest to see in modelviewer when you can zoom in super close

Not saying they are the same inside, but it’s evolved from Sparrow same way AIM-9X is evolution of Sidewinder. The SD-10 is so much lighter then Sparrow variants that it’s no surprise it performs so well at high altitude. I think it’s a great thing, it’s the refinement of a fifty year old missile that brings it performance to another level. There is something to be proud of in making an evolution of an old technology to the point it is competitive against other designs that do not have as old heritage.

Two TacView files; dozens of missiles.

 

The missiles that miss, positively jink away from the target for no good reason. Plenty of energy, and otherwise no reason to miss.

 

Ignore the file names - I'm flying the JF-17 and F-16 from a land base.

 

Worth watching the AIM-120s and AIM-7Ms as well - they miss for seemingly no good reason either, also making this weird jink away from target.

 

There are a couple of times the missiles seem to just completely ignore the target for no reason. At least one SD-10 is still doing Mach 2.5 and just completely ignores the target, and flies right past it as if it isn't there.

i agree that some missile went stupid due to no reason but there is some factors u missed if u wanna talk about it in Discord i would be happy to help u pm me

I see what you mean, you meant as comparison to CFD curve. Well all I can say is the same, you can’t add a perfect Cx0 curve or it’s extremely hard. Deka has tried and ED has tried, I think that says more about the missile API being too hard to be able to apply its four cx0 values for the whole speed then it does about this particular missile implementation. I don’t think you would find any missile with cx0 values the same as CFD as they are in game, they can’t just put in the CFD curve, they have to use the four LUA files and find a “happy medium” that averages out and gives the most accurate overall performance, but unless there’s an even bigger aerodynamic over haul I don’t think you will ever see CFD cx0 curve match perfectly in game.

 

Chizh showed that it is almost twice as close to CFD then it was before, I think that’s a remarkable improvement for cx0 coefficient curve

So corrected behavior brings:

- increased drag in high speed range (but still supposedly better then it should be)

- brick wall bump at speeds which you'd expect in endgame (which wasn't really noticed before as missile came too fast to endgame)

- reduced battery life limiting time of flight

Previously unnoticed features (are these modeled in other ARH missiles?):

- chaff resistance, lookdown issues, notch, seeker FOV?

Personaly, of maybe 30 shots since the patch, I got 2 hits (I play MP exclusively).

Would be cool to see side by side comparison of fox3s and reasoning behind the data (since many parameters are educated guesses or estimations due to highly classified actual data).

In the meantime, forget about JF-17 in AA role, buy an F-16 instead. Oh wait...where's my tin foil hat :smartass:

So corrected behavior brings:

- increased drag in high speed range (but still supposedly better then it should be)

- brick wall bump at speeds which you'd expect in endgame (which wasn't really noticed before as missile came too fast to endgame)

- reduced battery life limiting time of flight

 

Previously unnoticed features (are these modeled in other ARH missiles?):

- chaff resistance, lookdown issues, notch, seeker FOV?

 

Personaly, of maybe 30 shots since the patch, I got 2 hits (I play MP exclusively).

 

Would be cool to see side by side comparison of fox3s and reasoning behind the data (since many parameters are educated guesses or estimations due to highly classified actual data).

 

In the meantime, forget about JF-17 in AA role, buy an F-16 instead. Oh wait...where's my tin foil hat :smartass:

look my friend SD-10 is different now yes but its matter of changing your way of flying JF-17 in A/A Combat that is all after last Patch i did a lot of test and now i can kill enemy with SD-10 not like before but i am able to do it .. it depend on launching in closer range now before u can get kill from 30nm in 40000 feet with 1 mach speed now u can do it from 20nm separation with same parametric now . launching from 20nm in low combat situations u will push to 10nm its just need some practice and u have to remember there is no such a thing called that the aircraft will do the kill for u its about how u can corner your target to no escape zone that is all be smart and if u remember Mirage2000 before nerfe they can fly at 40000 feet with high speed and wipe the map literary after the nerfe fuel flow and speed and all stuff that changed in Mirage ,,,, do u think that after losing this advantage they stopped .... no they find another strategy to trap the enemy and kill it so far JF-17 remain dangerous in many aspect dont forget that and i am still and i will still fly JF-17 cuz really its a dangerous aircraft u just need to adjust your style of fighting that is all . ofc we are frustrated about what happened to SD-10 but that dose not change the fact that SD-10 remain dangerous in some aspects do your tests my friend and dont worry too much about it look at MP world and u will see SD-10 still kill people

Anarchy, chaff resistance and notch did not change. Just that global increase in the penalty of look down for all missiles.

Seeker FOV did change, but if I read the LUA right and Fi_excort is gimbal and Fi_search is beamwidth, it had a 60 degree beamwidth before, and now it’s ten. Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but if I’m right that means it was probably just a mix up with the gimbal figure. It can still track and lead a target as well as it could before in my experience

JF-17 remain dangerous in many aspect dont forget that and i am still and i will still fly JF-17 cuz really its a dangerous aircraft u just need to adjust your style of fighting that is all . ofc we are frustrated about what happened to SD-10 but that dose not change the fact that SD-10 remain dangerous in some aspects do your tests my friend and dont worry too much about it look at MP world and u will see SD-10 still kill people

I've killed F-15s flying the MiG-21 (with good GCI and terrain cover) that is not the point, I play MP exclusively (don't care much about shooting down brainless bots).

The point is that it doesn't feel like a tweak but major change which doesn't make sense in regards to relative performance to similar weapons. I like flying JF-17, but after this controversial change it makes little sense to use it in multiplayer and then it becomes boring airquake of F-1X vs F-1X

I've killed F-15s flying the MiG-21 (with good GCI and terrain cover) that is not the point, I play MP exclusively (don't care much about shooting down brainless bots).

 

The point is that it doesn't feel like a tweak but major change which doesn't make sense in regards to relative performance to similar weapons. I like flying JF-17, but after this controversial change it makes little sense to use it in multiplayer and then it becomes boring airquake of F-1X vs F-1X

my friend who said i disagree with u ofc its a Major changing and also i am playing MP exclusively i am a member of TAW so i am not interested in SP :music_whistling: and i found easier to kill real people than AI :lol: so its just a way of adjusting your fight style and see it as its more challengy

my friend who said i disagree with u ofc its a Major changing and also i am playing MP exclusively i am a member of TAW so i am not interested in SP :music_whistling: and i found easier to kill real people than AI :lol: so its just a way of adjusting your fight style and see it as its more challengy

Or just hop in a Hornet and go fox3 x 10 :megalol:

Two TacView files; dozens of missiles.

 

The missiles that miss, positively jink away from the target for no good reason. Plenty of energy, and otherwise no reason to miss.

 

Ignore the file names - I'm flying the JF-17 and F-16 from a land base.

 

Worth watching the AIM-120s and AIM-7Ms as well - they miss for seemingly no good reason either, also making this weird jink away from target.

 

There are a couple of times the missiles seem to just completely ignore the target for no reason. At least one SD-10 is still doing Mach 2.5 and just completely ignores the target, and flies right past it as if it isn't there.

OK, I've viewed your ACMI, and plz see the attach 2 picture. I think it should help you better understand what has happened.

You are fighting against AI, basically all your missed ARH missiles are notched by AI, and don't doubt it, AI is really good at notching, very precise 90degs beam turn.

As you can seen from the pic, these missile complete match those 3 conditions for notch that I mentioned above, so they get notched as intended. Nothing wrong here.

-------------

Several other points need to mention:

1. One SD-10 is notched but not heading for chaff, just like bump away from target.This is a side effect introduced very long time ago(back to DCSW 1.5),to protect helos from ARH missile.If the target is beaming and it's speed is below certain value(usually M0.7 below, better at M0.5 below), the ARH will drop the lock and turn away automatically. And this does not need look down and chaff support.

2.For AIM-7

It's chaff resistance is really low at the moment and the speed is also too too low, AIM-7 is completely useless outside 5NM.

And your teammate may not firing the AIM-7 at STT for several shots, I see some shots are not guided at all and AI didn't even drop the chaff.

Some other AIM-7 are missed because the target entered notch, APG73 can not provide illumination when target is lost.

Anarchy, chaff resistance and notch did not change. Just that global increase in the penalty of look down for all missiles.

 

Seeker FOV did change, but if I read the LUA right and Fi_excort is gimbal and Fi_search is beamwidth, it had a 60 degree beamwidth before, and now it’s ten. Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but if I’m right that means it was probably just a mix up with the gimbal figure. It can still track and lead a target as well as it could before in my experience

U are correct, we are trying to correct the wrong value for the ARH, but it did not work. After all, seeker still need the work from ED.

At the moment, all ARH seeker has very larger FOV or very fast scan speed(just like AESA, I can not tell which one, or they are all messed up).ARH can capture a 40deg off boresight target the moment it entered seeker range(15km/8nm), even without any DL support(turn off radar directly after launch).And sometime when ARH get chaffed, the missile will jinking between target and chaff for several time(if target get out notch too fast), because it recapture the target too fast.

We can do nothing about this.:doh:

Ive skimmed through the thread and I see alot of references to the DLZ, NEZ and long range shots.

1st) The DLZ is totally worthless in DCS. Learn by trial and error the lethal ranges for different missiles in DCS. When I look through the Hud I no longer see the DLZ, its filtered out by my brain as clutter.

2nd) In DCS the NEZ/RTR (the trIal and error one not the DLZ) etc are not even close to a guarantee of a kill. It is merely the range the bandit must immeadiately respond to your launch at, nothing more. Notching, CMs, line of sight, netcode, and blind luck cause missiles to miss. When they are notched they have this silly habit of pulling away from the bandit. It looks stupid, but it doesnt really matter,that missile is wasted.

3rd) it is very easy to drive missiles into the ground by pitching down. This works even at 4nm. The missile makes an exaggerated lead pursuit manuever when its already low driving it into the ground. Frustrating, but possibly not that unrealistic since as far as i know A2A missiles dont have radar altimeters or terrain avoidance. Of course most A2A engagements dont happen at 50ft in real life.

4th) Some of the ranges discussed in this thread are hopelessly optimistic against experienced PVP pilots. 120 and SD10 20nm kills just dont happen unless someone falls asleep or does something stupid. Most kills are when the missile motor is still burning. On the deck that would be 5-10nm. In a well fought squad match you can expend almost all your missiles at that range and perhaps achieve one kill. That would be considered a good result. In a busy MP server it is potentially easier because of the general disorganisation and varied level of pilot skill.

In essence, ignore the DLZ, and recalibrate your expectations.

OK, I've viewed your ACMI, and plz see the attach 2 picture. I think it should help you better understand what has happened.

 

You are fighting against AI, basically all your missed ARH missiles are notched by AI, and don't doubt it, AI is really good at notching, very precise 90degs beam turn.

 

As you can seen from the pic, these missile complete match those 3 conditions for notch that I mentioned above, so they get notched as intended. Nothing wrong here.

-------------

Several other points need to mention:

1. One SD-10 is notched but not heading for chaff, just like bump away from target.This is a side effect introduced very long time ago(back to DCSW 1.5),to protect helos from ARH missile.If the target is beaming and it's speed is below certain value(usually M0.7 below, better at M0.5 below), the ARH will drop the lock and turn away automatically. And this does not need look down and chaff support.

 

2.For AIM-7

It's chaff resistance is really low at the moment and the speed is also too too low, AIM-7 is completely useless outside 5NM.

And your teammate may not firing the AIM-7 at STT for several shots, I see some shots are not guided at all and AI didn't even drop the chaff.

Some other AIM-7 are missed because the target entered notch, APG73 can not provide illumination when target is lost.

Ive skimmed through the thread and I see alot of references to the DLZ, NEZ and long range shots.

 

1st) The DLZ is totally worthless in DCS. Learn by trial and error the lethal ranges for different missiles in DCS. When I look through the Hud I no longer see the DLZ, its filtered out by my brain as clutter.

 

2nd) In DCS the NEZ/RTR (the trIal and error one not the DLZ) etc are not even close to a guarantee of a kill. It is merely the range the bandit must immeadiately respond to your launch at, nothing more. Notching, CMs, line of sight, netcode, and blind luck cause missiles to miss. When they are notched they have this silly habit of pulling away from the bandit. It looks stupid, but it doesnt really matter,that missile is wasted.

 

3rd) it is very easy to drive missiles into the ground by pitching down. This works even at 4nm. The missile makes an exaggerated lead pursuit manuever when its already low driving it into the ground. Frustrating, but possibly not that unrealistic since as far as i know A2A missiles dont have radar altimeters or terrain avoidance. Of course most A2A engagements dont happen at 50ft in real life.

 

4th) Some of the ranges discussed in this thread are hopelessly optimistic against experienced PVP pilots. 120 and SD10 20nm kills just dont happen unless someone falls asleep or does something stupid. Most kills are when the missile motor is still burning. On the deck that would be 5-10nm. In a well fought squad match you can expend almost all your missiles at that range and perhaps achieve one kill. That would be considered a good result. In a busy MP server it is potentially easier because of the general disorganisation and varied level of pilot skill.

 

In essence, ignore the DLZ, and recalibrate your expectations.

priceless informations actually and correct 100% super thanks for this information to be in public for everyone

that is what expert players do that is why i said its all about training and optimizing your fight style it wont matter which module u choose unless u can master it and feel it in a lot of aspects like ( turn rate / climbing rate / what optimal speed / acceleration and deceleration rate / what preferable alt / advantage points and disadvantage points for example ( dont force F-16 to merge head to head after recommitting cuz he have helmet mount and he will got the better and the faster shoot and u will be dead ) study your aircraft and

(((((((( care less about missile stuff ))))))))

Ive skimmed through the thread and I see alot of references to the DLZ, NEZ and long range shots.

 

1st) The DLZ is totally worthless in DCS. Learn by trial and error the lethal ranges for different missiles in DCS. When I look through the Hud I no longer see the DLZ, its filtered out by my brain as clutter.

 

2nd) In DCS the NEZ/RTR (the trIal and error one not the DLZ) etc are not even close to a guarantee of a kill. It is merely the range the bandit must immeadiately respond to your launch at, nothing more. Notching, CMs, line of sight, netcode, and blind luck cause missiles to miss. When they are notched they have this silly habit of pulling away from the bandit. It looks stupid, but it doesnt really matter,that missile is wasted.

 

3rd) it is very easy to drive missiles into the ground by pitching down. This works even at 4nm. The missile makes an exaggerated lead pursuit manuever when its already low driving it into the ground. Frustrating, but possibly not that unrealistic since as far as i know A2A missiles dont have radar altimeters or terrain avoidance. Of course most A2A engagements dont happen at 50ft in real life.

 

4th) Some of the ranges discussed in this thread are hopelessly optimistic against experienced PVP pilots. 120 and SD10 20nm kills just dont happen unless someone falls asleep or does something stupid. Most kills are when the missile motor is still burning. On the deck that would be 5-10nm. In a well fought squad match you can expend almost all your missiles at that range and perhaps achieve one kill. That would be considered a good result. In a busy MP server it is potentially easier because of the general disorganisation and varied level of pilot skill.

 

In essence, ignore the DLZ, and recalibrate your expectations.

This is really the highly experienced pilot saying.:thumbup: