G force physical simulation

Hey all,

I was just thinking that one of the few limitations of the virtual world is the lack of physiological effects due to G forces and environement control.

For example, on a merge, it s easy to bleed off too much speed due to lack of sensations and pulling too hard on the stick without realising it.

So, I was wondering if it was possible to take the in game indicated G force and the processed data would feed a compressor or air source that would inflate/deflate a gsuit worn by the pilot.

It could give us a realistic physical info of what's happening while maneuvering no?

How feasible could that be?

Well, this is hopefully coming some time in the future: https://bergisons.simpit.info/motion-integrated-g-seat (I personally would love this to happen sooner than later).

And, we already have Andre's JeatSeat (https://andres.shop/12-jetseat), which gives some tactile feedback as well; not so much useful for feeling Gs, but useful to feel the onset of high AOA which would be a precursor to bleeding too much speed in a hard turn. I love the one I have, and it really helps to get some feedback from the plane in DCS.

Another idea is wearing a harness connected to a rotary motor controlled by Arduino reading the G value from the sim. The motor turning would tight the harness, cause pressure on your body. Unloading the aircraft would cause the engine turning the other way, loosing the harness.

I have a similar haptic pad like Andre´S JetSeat and works very well to make you feel how much you are pulling, among many other things.

The way the f16 simulator dig back in the 90s was using a g suit the inflated to represent g forces if I remember correctly

Very feasible, Just thinkng on the fly.

1) Use export LUA or DCS BIOS to export g's,

2) Simple PSI sensor in the pants line to Arduino analog input.

3) Pneumatic valve or valves to Arduino outputs.

4) Arduino code maps current LUA export g's to desired pants PSI .

5) Arduino code turn on and of the pneumatic valve or valves until sensor PSI in G pants line = the mapped PSI from the LUA export.

You will need some form of logic level solid state relay to run the pneumatic solenoids, which are typically 12 or 24 volts. For variable infill and deflation rates you would quickly pulse the solenoids. I would probably have a a few solenoids in parallel for quicker inflation rates. You will have to use separate inflation and deflation 2 way valves or 3 position blocking vales, to inflate hold and deflate the pants.

Thats the first time I have ever put used the term "pants PSI"

Good Luck,

Miles

G-suits have been used in military simulators for a while time - I used to fly the TAC ACES sim at Luke AFB when I worked there after retiring from the AF (late 90s). It had interchangeable F-15 and F-16 cockpits that slid into full domes made up of pancake Fresnel lenses; early attempt at an 2-ship ACM sim. Cockpits had g-suits (modified real g-suits without the one-way valves) and buffet cues; it was pretty realistic - especially in the F-16 as you couldn't tell what your energy state was by how much you were pulling on the stick. If you were pulling and the g-suit was not inflating, it was time to unload cuz you was out of knots!

I really liked the g-suit; it felt pretty realistic to me, but you had to be careful as without actual g-forces you could hurt yourself!

The F-15E WST sim I was working on at the time (just down the hall in the same sim building) had a g-seat/suit system but it never worked and was removed pretty quickly. None of the USAF F-15 sims currently used (and I've flown all of them) - or any of the USAF and ANG F-16 sims that I got into and played with - have g-suit or g-seats.

Much later (2013) I spent a year working on the Singapore M-346 sim at Cazaux AB in France and it had a really fancy G-suit/g-seat/simulated oxygen system and a nice hi-res Boeing CRVS full dome - when the Sing student pilots got in that sim they were fully kitted up - including immersion suits when the actual water temp required it!

See: https://www.acme-worldwide.com/products/dynamic-motion-seats/fighters/g-suit-systems/

Funny about that old TAC ACES sim at Luke - I first flew it in 1976 when I was learning to be an F-4 WSO; back then it had hard wing pre-556 F-4 cockpits and the threat models were exactly that - wooden models of Mig-21s and Mig-23s that were suspended by wires and rotated in front of cameras, then projected onto the Fresnel lenses...crude but it worked! 20 years later I was back playing in it with different cockpits and better computer visuals replacing the models - which were now hung from wires in the briefing rooms. After hours I could bring in my glider buddies and try to teach them how to fly a Viper; the hardest thing was getting them to roll and PULL to turn!

Vulture

Along the same lines, it's possible to trick your inner ears (by using electrical currents) into thinking your are moving in pitch/roll/yaw when you are not actually moving. Developed to help cure motion sickness or something. If you combined that with a good VR system and a g-suit/g-seat you could get some real immersion!

But god help you if the visual and inner ear cues got out of synch!

Vulture

I was thinking about this, G suit is a good idea, but I would think something seat integrated would be more livable.

So one of the key things you feel with G in relation to the seat is sinking into it. you could run a set of pneumatic cushions onto the seat that as G increases they deflate and as G decreases they fill back up. It's obviously not a true simulation of G. And would require an air source, with the resultant noise etc. But it's a Haptic feedback that uses an otherwise un-used "input channel" You could probably also integrate it with buzzers like the current feedback seats for all the bumps and vibrations and such.

Of course a FFB stick with real bob weight modeling would help that along as well since it would take genuine work to pull hard Gs.

I was thinking about this, G suit is a good idea, but I would think something seat integrated would be more livable.

 

So one of the key things you feel with G in relation to the seat is sinking into it. you could run a set of pneumatic cushions onto the seat that as G increases they deflate and as G decreases they fill back up. It's obviously not a true simulation of G. And would require an air source, with the resultant noise etc. But it's a Haptic feedback that uses an otherwise un-used "input channel" You could probably also integrate it with buzzers like the current feedback seats for all the bumps and vibrations and such.

 

Of course a FFB stick with real bob weight modeling would help that along as well since it would take genuine work to pull hard Gs.

That's a great idea also. After seeing Eric's amazing G seat work, and listening to his conceptual thoughts about simulating the forces on the body, I was thinking of making a controler for the electric car seat I use in my pit. This seat also has adjustable lumbar and side support that I would increase for acceleration in addition to moving the seat.

Car seats really are fantastic for sim pits. For 100 usd at any local junkyard you can have your pick of high end fully electric seats. Hell, you could even hook the seat heater up for a reminder that you left it in afterburner. Not sure how well the whole concept would work , but the subtle clues might help on the cheap.

So many ideas, so little time

EDIT "otherwise un-used input channel" I was a little slow on the uptake on that one, but isint it really more of an output channel.

Hey all,

 

I was just thinking that one of the few limitations of the virtual world is the lack of physiological effects due to G forces and environement control.

 

For example, on a merge, it s easy to bleed off too much speed due to lack of sensations and pulling too hard on the stick without realising it.

 

So, I was wondering if it was possible to take the in game indicated G force and the processed data would feed a compressor or air source that would inflate/deflate a gsuit worn by the pilot.

It could give us a realistic physical info of what's happening while maneuvering no?

 

How feasible could that be?

Some type of feedback for angle of attack and G would be excellent, the best source of this would be stick force, like the hornet, but to a lesser extent. Or something to help feel those small changes, the slight neg when you are floating a bit on final or anything precision like formation.

But if your goal is realism or immersion, I don't think a g suite inflating without the accompanying G's would be realistic or increase immersion- or be very pleasant. It is difficult to explain to people who have not experienced it, there just isn't a point of reference. It is a significant part of the skill of BFM; anticipating high loads, being fit with good agsm, good educance, body positioning, being able to communicate w/ free fighter with more than grunts, etc. But as someone that plays a lot of DCS and still flies a 150 or so aerobatic hours per year, with momentary loads exceeding 10G frequently and longer stints in the 4-5 range (pos and neg... uhg)... it's an issue I've thought and continue to think a lot about. At the end of the day, for realism there just isn't a solution, it can't be replicated sans a giant centrifuge and even then onset and jerk aren't replicated. I do think the performance/replacing that seat of pants feel there are some options, but I think there are better ways.

Be careful what you wish for anyway. Someday maybe VR headsets will tap into the nerves sending signals to our brains. Until then appreciate its absence - Gs are fun on a joyride, but when you're task oriented they are an obstacle and dangerous. I can play dcs for hours but 20 minutes of high G and i'm wrecked, I don't get injured playing DCS (well, there was that time running for a fresh beer and the ****ing dog was right behind... ahh nm). I don't' mean just temporarily strains and such because you were leaned forward messing with a MFD or hamfisted. Lots of guys, myself included, have lasting injuries, often in their neck/spine. In my case its not too bad, I have myelopathy in my cervical spine from compressive with my neck in rotation/extension, relatively common but causes loss of sensation/pins & needs in fingers and hands daily.

They are getting better and better at tricky the eyes/mind with headsets and small physical tactile sensations, I'm sure it won't be too long before we've got something workable.

Some type of feedback for angle of attack and G would be excellent, the best source of this would be stick force, like the hornet, but to a lesser extent. Or something to help feel those small changes, the slight neg when you are floating a bit on final or anything precision like formation.

 

But if your goal is realism or immersion, I don't think a g suite inflating without the accompanying G's would be realistic or increase immersion- or be very pleasant. It is difficult to explain to people who have not experienced it, there just isn't a point of reference. It is a significant part of the skill of BFM; anticipating high loads, being fit with good agsm, good educance, body positioning, being able to communicate w/ free fighter with more than grunts, etc. But as someone that plays a lot of DCS and still flies a 150 or so aerobatic hours per year, with momentary loads exceeding 10G frequently and longer stints in the 4-5 range (pos and neg... uhg)... it's an issue I've thought and continue to think a lot about. At the end of the day, for realism there just isn't a solution, it can't be replicated sans a giant centrifuge and even then onset and jerk aren't replicated. I do think the performance/replacing that seat of pants feel there are some options, but I think there are better ways.

 

Be careful what you wish for anyway. Someday maybe VR headsets will tap into the nerves sending signals to our brains. Until then appreciate its absence - Gs are fun on a joyride, but when you're task oriented they are an obstacle and dangerous. I can play dcs for hours but 20 minutes of high G and i'm wrecked, I don't get injured playing DCS (well, there was that time running for a fresh beer and the ****ing dog was right behind... ahh nm). I don't' mean just temporarily strains and such because you were leaned forward messing with a MFD or hamfisted. Lots of guys, myself included, have lasting injuries, often in their neck/spine. In my case its not too bad, I have myelopathy in my cervical spine from compressive with my neck in rotation/extension, relatively common but causes loss of sensation/pins & needs in fingers and hands daily.

 

They are getting better and better at tricky the eyes/mind with headsets and small physical tactile sensations, I'm sure it won't be too long before we've got something workable.

Very interesting insight, thanks for sharing.

And I guess, even though some system may replicate G-force around your body, it might be feel weird to having not pressure at all on arms and lower legs.

I've learned that things have to be easy, and quick, or people will ignore them in the long term. So how to do this for the lazy guy? I've read that it's possible to replicate some sense of G-force using close to the body, directional tactile, using either the jet seats, or as proposed by "Mr Latte" on the racing forums, carefully placed seat back exciters. Perhaps this method could be even more refined? It would certainly be the " cheap easy way", but how good could it be? No it does not simulate real Gforce, but with VR, I think we just need G force cues, and that would be enough?

Could Jetseat owners perhaps comment if there is any merit to this?

I'm currently going with the seat back exciter route which will offer more control than a jetseat, using 6 independent "stereo" exciters that have full frequency range available. https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-daex32ep-4-thruster-32mm-exciter-40w-4-ohm--295-230

I've learned that things have to be easy, and quick, or people will ignore them in the long term.

If you're really replicating it, then the lazy aren't ignoring it. The effect on one's body cannot be overstated, thus if its being replicated you couldn't just ignore it. Simplest example - Viper force sensing stick is awesome, but when your 15 lb arm suddenly weighs 150 lbs, and you are flexing your core, legs and diaphram as hard as possible, doing quick 1/4 breaths b/c a full exhale means there's no way your refilling your lungs and you've gotta unload or GLOC is imminent.

There was a vid a while back of somebody training BFM in a hornet, looked like b-school given the wayu the pilot was handling the plane. While no lesson on BFM technique, it was a good demo. And that's in a hornet where you're generally at 4-6 unless your screwed, viper guys could do that in flip flops and jorts.

If you're really replicating it, then the lazy aren't ignoring it. The effect on one's body cannot be overstated, thus if its being replicated you couldn't just ignore it. Simplest example - Viper force sensing stick is awesome, but when your 15 lb arm suddenly weighs 150 lbs, and you are flexing your core, legs and diaphram as hard as possible, doing quick 1/4 breaths b/c a full exhale means there's no way your refilling your lungs and you've gotta unload or GLOC is imminent.

 

There was a vid a while back of somebody training BFM in a hornet, looked like b-school given the wayu the pilot was handling the plane. While no lesson on BFM technique, it was a good demo. And that's in a hornet where you're generally at 4-6 unless your screwed, viper guys could do that in flip flops and jorts.

I'm sorry, I was not clear, and I used a bad choice of words. I meant that if a person has to go through a lot of trouble to replicate G- force, ( such as wearing a G-suit, hooking up hoses, ETC.) many will skip doing it at all. ( They will ignore that setup!)

I was actually agreeing with you, that some sort of tactile cues would be the easiest, and cheapest way forward. That's why I'm going the exciter route. Hopefully, some Jet seat owners could speak out about if their is any merit to this plan.

I have a Simxperience GS5 G seat in my racing pit. In VR it does a very good job of tricking your brain to believe you are pulling g’s ina turn. Unfortunately it doesn’t have a software interface to DCS or any other flight sims. They promise to add flight in the future but it will be a while. If you combined this with motion, it should be effective at giving a good sense of flight particularly in VR.

G-forces in Sims are worth the effort in my opinion.

Passive g-seat move by some connecting to the diy Plattform sfx-100

https://vimeo.com/335722381

In the Last months turned into an active g-seat with its own Motors:

https://vimeo.com/368239318

https://vimeo.com/364005580

The vertikal belt is for positive g's. It goes around the neck and pulls you into the seat.

https://vimeo.com/368228464

The System works pretty goog for racing too.

https://vimeo.com/372078459

But i am open for new ideas...

Harry

Woow, thanks guys for the inputs.

Indeed, trying to sim those phenomenons like G loads will be way too hard and expensive. And to try to simulate G forces on your body, could even be harmfull and dangerous like mentioned.

Here the idea would be more like simulating a stimulus that would represent the G's (and not emulating G's hopefully lol).

I started thinking about this since the consequence of pulling G's would be an inflation of the suit. At least sitting in our rig, we should feel it.

When I learned aerobatics, I could feel the G's indeed when the instructor was flying the plane but when it's your turn, being concentrated on what U do, you don't realise it, it kinda becomes a second nature somehow...

I do have a functional g suit at home. And looking at it made me wonder how I could link it to the sim data output just for the fun. Combined with VR, might be a fun experience...

Woow, thanks guys for the inputs.

 

Indeed, trying to sim those phenomenons like G loads will be way too hard and expensive. And to try to simulate G forces on your body, could even be harfull and dangerous like mentioned.

 

Here the idea would be more like simulating a stimulus that would represent the G's (and not emulating G's hopefully lol).

I started thinking about this since the consequence of pulling G's would be an inflation of the suit. At least sitting in our rig, we should feel it.

When I learned aerobatics, I could feel the G's indeed when the instructor was flying the plane but when it's your turn, being concentrated on what U do, you don't realise it, it kinda becomes a second nature somehow...

 

I do have a functional g suit at home. And loking at it made me wonder how I could link it to the sim data output just for the fun. Combined with VR, might be a fun experience...

Sounds like a fun project.

Let me know if you would like any references to possible components. I use pneumatics and a micro-controller in a adhesion tester that I designed, and am the OEM of.

Miles

These are again some of the ideas and features that already should be available in "plug and play" toolkit that you install and you tell what sensor is what and then but a easily available parts and sensors to make own seats.

I'm sorry, I was not clear, and I used a bad choice of words. I meant that if a person has to go through a lot of trouble to replicate G- force, ( such as wearing a G-suit, hooking up hoses, ETC.) many will skip doing it at all. ( They will ignore that setup!)

 

 

I was actually agreeing with you, that some sort of tactile cues would be the easiest, and cheapest way forward. That's why I'm going the exciter route. Hopefully, some Jet seat owners could speak out about if their is any merit to this plan.

Wmacky, i love andres jetseat and as you can see it has still its place on top of my gseat. In fact i had andres jetseat first and came into this hobby by reading about bergisons gseat 3 years ago. I could not fly any more once andres jetseat was broken for 2 weeks. Then i build my first gseat with rc servos and it was really good together with andres jetseat. But i realized for me that i prefer somè forces on my body to simulate gforces and the jetseat is very goog in giving me the vibrations. The gseat together with a harness driven by 4 points of the flaps is what gives me good cues for gs. Since my rc-servos where not build for the gs of racing they broke in the first 12 months and luckily i could replace them with industry servos last year. But they also give only cues if you compare it with the real gs. But these cues are interpreted very well by the brain.

I tried a fixed base flightsimulator that had pneumatic bellows in the seat pan and lower back rest.

When accelerating the lower back rest pushed forward onto my lower back and when I pulled g the seat pushed upwards.

This did add a lot to the tactile feedback of flying. It wasn’t nearly as pronounced as in real life flying, but it was enough to trick the senses. Especially when unloading in a high g maneuver, I felt a brief sense of falling.

This should be possible to replicate fairly easy...

Would hate to see how much one of these:https://www.acme-worldwide.com/products/dynamic-motion-seats/dynamic-motion-seat-overview/ would cost...seeing as their customer base are governments not hobbyists. Lol

Chris (Bergison) and I are progressing well in the process of finding a manufacturer of the (patent-pending) Motion-Integrated G-Seat. I built my prototype based off Chris's plans and have received excellent feedback from everyone who has tried it.

If anyone is in the Toronto area and wants to see what the fuss is about, feel free to send me a DM.

Fwiw I find the Jetseat excellent for feedback. I turn off the g effect as it's too distracting and I am way more interested in buffet and AOA. I have my g suit still from the USAF but I don't think the effort required to make it inflate would be worth the reward.

I find force-feedback sticks totally irelevant as in an Aircraft the feedback is through your backside not the stick. They may have a place in Helo flying but I am a fixed wing guy so I am not sure.

I would love a motion seat but from what I have seen so far they are not realistic . If it rolls left when you turn left then it's wrong. Unfortunately the programming of a motion sim is kinda tricky.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

Fwiw I find the Jetseat excellent for feedback. I turn off the g effect as it's too distracting and I am way more interested in buffet and AOA. I have my g suit still from the USAF but I don't think the effort required to make it inflate would be worth the reward.

 

I find force-feedback sticks totally irelevant as in an Aircraft the feedback is through your backside not the stick. They may have a place in Helo flying but I am a fixed wing guy so I am not sure.

 

I would love a motion seat but from what I have seen so far they are not realistic . If it rolls left when you turn left then it's wrong. Unfortunately the programming of a motion sim is kinda tricky.

 

 

 

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk

There is always a Motion cueing Software between the simulator and your Motion System so that you are free to decide in which direction you want to roll, pitch,...and so on depending on how much degrees of freedom your System has. We are sensing motion all a little bit different and its important that you create a Motion profile that suits exatly what your brain needs. This is a longer process, better measured in days than in minutes. ;-)