Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing

It's a little different at first, but you learn quickly, or are force to rather. Just trim it out and don't really do any push or pull, just have an index finger and thumb on the stick.

 

Different times for sure, HUDs are awesome.

 

He's always just kidding about the young guys flying the new machines, and always enjoys a chance to chat with them when we run into them at the military golf courses.

...but, he did say the A-3 was a PIA to get aboard the boat. The A-7 and A-4 were much easier. With the A-3, you had to get a really good start--you better be tits-on when you roll into the groove.

You don't need an opinion on the topic, you have multiple posters that have hornet time in the thread, as well as others that have flown tailhook aircraft as well, their way is the best way. If you don't believe it now, just act like you do and over time you will understand why it's done the way it is.

Well I stand corrected then. I was just talking from experience of how I finally learned to land the T-38 (hardest aircraft I've had to land, the window for height above ground and AoA for when to flare was really slim.) Previous experiences in things like Cessna 172, DA-20, and T-6 it was very much more trim to the right airspeed then use power to correct flight path. T-38 was a lot more difficult to keep trimmed at an airspeed because you were so far into the region of reverse command at approach speed (T-38 no likey slow speed) that you were constantly man handling both the throttle and stick at the same time and couldn't really think about it other than do what you can to keep the flight path marker on the threshold and the AoA where you want it.

Guess I'll have to revert back to this weird thing called "fundamentals" I've heard so much about when flying DCS F-18 :drink:

Well I stand corrected then. I was just talking from experience of how I finally learned to land the T-38 (hardest aircraft I've had to land, the window for height above ground and AoA for when to flare was really slim.) Previous experiences in things like Cessna 172, DA-20, and T-6 it was very much more trim to the right airspeed then use power to correct flight path. T-38 was a lot more difficult to keep trimmed at an airspeed because you were so far into the region of reverse command at approach speed (T-38 no likey slow speed) that you were constantly man handling both the throttle and stick at the same time and couldn't really think about it other than do what you can to keep the flight path marker on the threshold and the AoA where you want it.

 

Guess I'll have to revert back to this weird thing called "fundamentals" I've heard so much about when flying DCS F-18 :drink:

It's just a different kind of flying from any other aircraft. It takes most quite some time to be able to fly the ball at all, and literally a year of training to be able to go to the boat. The only time we really reference air speed in the pattern is to make sure our AOA probe isn't stuck. Everything that has changed over the years is designed with boarding rates in mind at the boat, because being even 5' off glide slope at the wires, or off AOA means you bolter or hook skip bolter.

I'm excited for DCS to be able to offer this kind of specialist aviation field, not only will it be excellent for strike fighter aircraft to be added to the game, but the amount of people that would want a fully accurate carrier experience will bring the masses over.

I'm excited for DCS to be able to offer this kind of specialist aviation field, not only will it be excellent for strike fighter aircraft to be added to the game, but the amount of people that would want a fully accurate carrier experience will bring the masses over.

I'm excited too, would love to experience navy ops. If it is accurately modeled I assume it will be a small community with how difficult carrier ops can be. Have experience with others who can barely manage basic formation... if this shows an indication of how carrier ops will go, it will be a fun show to watch. I did some Su-33 carrier action back in LOMAC days but not really since then and I did okay, so it must be easy :smilewink:

hell we even had the audacity to flare the aircraft :)

Nooooooooooooooooo

Just kidding :D

I'm out :pilotfly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZrZidInYM

Can you tell the small influences in the nose with the stick?

While preparing for the upcoming module, I found this in the NATOPS manual describing landing and takeoff characteristics of F18 FCS:

 

 

 

So the FCS actually encourages what we known as "throttle for GS and stick for AOA". An increase in throttle would result in a decrease in AOA, which would make the aircraft pull up by itself, so that AOA is maintained.

 

This would make carrier landing a lot easier than Su-33 IMO.

Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude.

3/4 mile final. In WWII it was much closer.

Watch the pilot work the throttle here to stay on GS in the slot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSnlWJjRLNw

Watch the pilot work the throttle here to stay on GS in the slot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSnlWJjRLNw

Great video! Interesting, how much throttle-movement there is, especially at the last part of arrival... Also nice to see how the groundcrew on deck works...

Great video, thanks. Plenty of lateral stick movement too.

I wouldn't be surprised if the weather was making quite a difference to the workload too. Hopefully this is something that will be improved in DCS at some point, as we don't really seem to have gusty conditions yet.

Great video, thanks. Plenty of lateral stick movement too.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the weather was making quite a difference to the workload too. Hopefully this is something that will be improved in DCS at some point, as we don't really seem to have gusty conditions yet.

Those who know better (and I trust their opinions on NavAir) tell me that this doesn't even really begin to qualify as "impactful weather"

I'm told scud like this is maybe one half degree higher on the stress chart than CAVU.

Stones. They all have huge stones...

Watch the pilot work the throttle here to stay on GS in the slot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSnlWJjRLNw

Nice video! Also, interesting to see how fuel indicator works by jumping between 6.9 and 7.1. One other thing I noted for myself is that pilot gives MIL power much earlier before touchdown than I would have excepted.

Nice video! Also, interesting to see how fuel indicator works by jumping between 6.9 and 7.1. One other thing I noted for myself is that pilot gives MIL power much earlier before touchdown than I would have excepted.

He definitely shoves the throttles forward before touchdown but I think he was chasing the ball...

From 4:52 to 4:55 he's at idle or very near idle.

I think he firewalls the throttles at 4:56 to avoid excessive sink.

Watch the velocity vector in the Glideslope bracket through the last 10 to 15 seconds before touchdown. It looks to me like he is trending low.

Great video, thanks. Plenty of lateral stick movement too.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the weather was making quite a difference to the workload too. Hopefully this is something that will be improved in DCS at some point, as we don't really seem to have gusty conditions yet.

Yes, lateral stick is required for rolling still, you'll just notice the throttle for glideslope control instead of pushing/pulling.

The weather is just annoying more than anything, weather isn't a big deal here at all.

He definitely shoves the throttles forward before touchdown but I think he was chasing the ball...

 

From 4:52 to 4:55 he's at idle or very near idle.

 

I think he firewalls the throttles at 4:56 to avoid excessive sink.

 

Watch the velocity vector in the Glideslope bracket through the last 10 to 15 seconds before touchdown. It looks to me like he is trending low.

That's not a glideslope bracket, that's the E bracket, it shows you on speed aoa. You can see the ball on the left of the boat, and can see that he's high coming down so he tries to gun it to catch a center ball, however flies through down. You normally go mil on touchdown, not before.

It is however an excellent example of using the throttle for glideslope control.

I had the right church, just the wrong pew... :music_whistling:

This has been the best thread I've read on here for sometime. Lots of good input from all sorts of experts.

One of the best things I learned on this subject was from a test pilot who had experience in a couple hundred aircraft types (mostly military) in over 50 years of flying.

His way of teaching was basically like this:

ATTITUDE + POWER + CONFIGURATION = PERFORMANCE

So, for most flying, pitch attitude would be measured in degrees, while power could be measured in different units based on the type of engine. Piston powered engines would be either RPM (fixed pitch prop), MP (constant speed prop), or % power. Turboprops might be measured in TQ. Jets might be measured by EPR, N1, etc. Configuration would refer to the position of the secondary flight controls, landing gear, etc.

The idea is that for each segment of flight (climb, cruise climb, cruise, cruise decent, initial level approach, final precision and non precision approach, MDA level off, and missed approach) there is a specific pitch attitude, power, and configuration that should be known to the pilot as a starting point.

So, I've heard people arguing about whether they should add back pressure or release it when going around or going missed. This shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be to initially set the attitude, power, and configuration of the airplane to what the pilot knows in advance will approximate the desired perfomance (using the specific procedure in the flight manual), and then make adjustment to these settings based on the actual performance as measured by looking outside and/or scanning the flight instruments.

So, while it is generally true in a 172 that forward stick pressure may be required initially on the go around or missed, what is important is A+P+C. Imagine the airplane is grossly out of trim on approach and was being flown with excessive backward stick pressure, or something else is wrong? Is it still correct to push forward? What matters is the correct attitude power and configuration. If you have a TOGA button, you press it and pitch to the command bars. Push forward, pull back, whatever is necessary.

APC=P is among the first things I'd teach to an instrument student. I'd have them make a table for each flight segment. We'd fill out the parts we could using the handbook and then figure out the rest using their own airplanes.

Over the years I've found it useful to create a APC=P cheat sheet for the different airplanes I fly.

Looking forward to making one for the Hornet, and considering that I'll be using AoA instead of degrees for pitch.

It strikes me that airspeed hasn't been mentioned much in this discussion, but there must be a range from maximum carrier landing weight on down, given the specific angle of attack is a constant (correct assumption?).

Would it follow the convention Vcarrier landing = Vcarrier landing @ max weight * SQRT (current landing weight / max landing weight).

Just curious if the math from AfNA holds up.

Is this something the crew has to figure out to set up the arresting cables? Obviously, if the aircraft is heavier, it must in fact also be flying at a higher speed for the same glide path at the same angle of attack. Seems like huge potential differences in kinetic energy for a heavy Hornet vs a light one.

This has been the best thread I've read on here for sometime. Lots of good input from all sorts of experts.

 

One of the best things I learned on this subject was from a test pilot who had experience in a couple hundred aircraft types (mostly military) in over 50 years of flying.

 

His way of teaching was basically like this:

 

ATTITUDE + POWER + CONFIGURATION = PERFORMANCE

 

So, for most flying, pitch attitude would be measured in degrees, while power could be measured in different units based on the type of engine. Piston powered engines would be either RPM (fixed pitch prop), MP (constant speed prop), or % power. Turboprops might be measured in TQ. Jets might be measured by EPR, N1, etc. Configuration would refer to the position of the secondary flight controls, landing gear, etc.

 

The idea is that for each segment of flight (climb, cruise climb, cruise, cruise decent, initial level approach, final precision and non precision approach, MDA level off, and missed approach) there is a specific pitch attitude, power, and configuration that should be known to the pilot as a starting point.

 

So, I've heard people arguing about whether they should add back pressure or release it when going around or going missed. This shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be to initially set the attitude, power, and configuration of the airplane to what the pilot knows in advance will approximate the desired perfomance (using the specific procedure in the flight manual), and then make adjustment to these settings based on the actual performance as measured by looking outside and/or scanning the flight instruments.

 

So, while it is generally true in a 172 that forward stick pressure may be required initially on the go around or missed, what is important is A+P+C. Imagine the airplane is grossly out of trim on approach and was being flown with excessive backward stick pressure, or something else is wrong? Is it still correct to push forward? What matters is the correct attitude power and configuration. If you have a TOGA button, you press it and pitch to the command bars. Push forward, pull back, whatever is necessary

Yes, this is true for most phases of flight, but the groove to the boat isn't most phases of flight. When I climb out or level off of course I have rough gouge numbers for what to do, however the thing is with these aircraft that external stores dramatically change your fuel flow settings for level flight, and if you rely on those numbers to fly good then you're in trouble. Generally in the pattern you don't have time to set fuel flow to an exact setting, it's more of a reference quickly to make sure you're in the ballpark. If you stare at it trying to change it (like you have the luxury of doing in airliners, etc) you will be off your altitude rather substantially and your speed will get away from you. It's actually very impressive, and even more so frustrating.

Refering to waveoffs now, again, it's imperative you don't rotate at the boat because you have a big dangling hook on your tail and if you rotate past on speed aoa then that hook drops too far down, and when that happens you run the risk of hook slaps, stab slaps, or IFEs, all of which are bad and will break the jet pretty good. Also, we don't have fancy TOGA buttons, first and foremost we're a weapon that just so happens has to navigate, so don't have a lot of amenities airliners do.

Looking forward to making one for the Hornet, and considering that I'll be using AoA instead of degrees for pitch.

 

It strikes me that airspeed hasn't been mentioned much in this discussion, but there must be a range from maximum carrier landing weight on down, given the specific angle of attack is a constant (correct assumption?).

 

Would it follow the convention Vcarrier landing = Vcarrier landing @ max weight * SQRT (current landing weight / max landing weight).

 

Just curious if the math from AfNA holds up.

 

Is this something the crew has to figure out to set up the arresting cables? Obviously, if the aircraft is heavier, it must in fact also be flying at a higher speed for the same glide path at the same angle of attack. Seems like huge potential differences in kinetic energy for a heavy Hornet vs a light one.

AoA is used in lieu of airspeed in landing, in fact all I do with airspeed in that regime is check it to make sure my AoA is working correctly. AoA is more than just speed though, it sets proper angles for the pilot to see the ball, as well as sets the proper hook point to avoid skips, slaps, and IFEs. As long as your under max landing / max trap speeds you're good to go. Information about the aircraft config is relayed on initial calls to Marshall, and you give your fuel state on the ball call, otherwise, the tower freq is completely silent as well. Afaik weights are only delt with on cat shots, traps aren't adjusted at all.

Afaik weights are only delt with on cat shots, traps aren't adjusted at all.

This statement might be true, how ever I could have sworn I saw/read somewhere that the traps also were adjusted for aircraft which is essentially weight.

OK I found what I was looking for..

Each pendant has its own engine systems that absorb and dispel the energies developed when a landing aircraft is arrested. Carriers use hydro-pneumatic systems, each weighing 43 tons,[10] wherein oil fluid is forced out of a cylinder by a ram (that is connected to the purchase cable) through a control valve.[11] A major development in arresting gear was the constant runout control valve, which controls the fluid flow from the engine cylinder to the accumulator and is designed to stop all aircraft with the same amount of runout regardless of the weight and speed. The aircraft's weight is set by the arresting gear engine operator. The operator is given the weight of the aircraft by the air officer in Primary Flight Control. The operator then sets the Constant Runout Control Valve to the appropriate weight setting for that aircraft. The pressure setting for the arresting gear engine remains at a constant pressure of about 400 pounds per square inch. The constant runout valve (CROV) stops the aircraft (as opposed to hydraulic pressure).

Yes, they do make changes based on the weight of landing aircraft:

Figured they would, just something we don't deal with.

Yes, this is true for most phases of flight, but the groove to the boat isn't most phases of flight. When I climb out or level off of course I have rough gouge numbers for what to do, however the thing is with these aircraft that external stores dramatically change your fuel flow settings for level flight, and if you rely on those numbers to fly good then you're in trouble. Generally in the pattern you don't have time to set fuel flow to an exact setting, it's more of a reference quickly to make sure you're in the ballpark. If you stare at it trying to change it (like you have the luxury of doing in airliners, etc) you will be off your altitude rather substantially and your speed will get away from you. It's actually very impressive, and even more so frustrating.

Great info.... thanks

So, in the pattern you are flying airspeed?

Can you say more about what you do when you bolter? Is it always thrust levers full forward, and then ?

are they using AB for a bolter or just MIL power?

Great info.... thanks

 

So, in the pattern you are flying airspeed?

 

Can you say more about what you do when you bolter? Is it always thrust levers full forward, and then ?

No problem, I flew a lot of GA stuff before I started doing this so I understand it seems a little goofy. I just hit the I believe button until I wrapped my head around it.

So I'm the pattern well normally hit the break, then slow up. Drop the gear as soon as we can, continue slowing to on-speed. We really only reference airspeed to ensure our AOA probe isn't stuck, and once we make sure it's working properly we essentially ignore airspeed all together. It's both easier to use and better for trapping to be on AOA because you don't have to worry about the lower stall protection in the approach turn, etc. it compensates automatically, and the trim remains trimmed for the airspeed (the hornet obviously but non-FBW aircraft are trimmed for AOA as well, although it manifests itself as trimmed to an airspeed. This is why when trimmed to an airspeed in a ga plane it increases airspeed in the turn, the wing is looking for that same AOA).

are they using AB for a bolter or just MIL power?

To answer both questions here, you just firewall it when you touch down, and yank the stick in your gut. Seems like you're asking for a stall, but the momentum of the jet will make the nose gear touch and bounce back up and you essentially coax it into a fly away attitude, and when that nose comes back up you just ensure it doesn't get too high, but you have to get it off deck asap because the landing area isn't that big. If you trap you don't pull idle till you're in back stop in the wires. You plan to bolter. I'm not to the Hornets yet, however I remember reading that the baby Hornets would go burner and the rhinos would just go mil, but I could (and probably am) be wrong.