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Old 07-21-2018, 02:59 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jester986 View Post
Oh no Dimitri... Don't poke the bear. The trolls will come out haha
I think the biggest problem is understanding what your video illustrates, no I'm not being smart however other than moving the cyclic the external world is difficult to observe in your video.

cyclic vs aircraft,

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Old 07-21-2018, 03:17 PM   #52
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No problem Fragbum! That's why I make an input and then show the attitude indicator so you can see I'm holding 10 degrees of bank with the cyclic in the center position. The video was in response to somebody saying that the helicopter should return to a level attitude when you center cyclic. Something else the video illustrates is how tiny of a movement in the controls it takes to get a response from a helicopter, the point of that is you don't fly a helicopter by thinking about where you are positioning the cyclic you fly it by feel and therefore to me it's irrelevant if Pollychops gazelle does not have an exact one-to-one cyclic position relation to the actual aircraft. I know everyone wants as much realism as possible but the fact is you're not going to learn to actually fly a helicopter on DCs so I think the goal of realism should be for the most realistic feel of flying a helicopter. I personally think the gazelle feels the best out of any Sim I've flown including one at flight safety, the original poster obviously disagrees with me and to be fair it sounds like he is much more experience in similar types of aircraft than I do. My biggest thing is though for a good helicopter experience you need to remove the centering spring or at least find one that's extremely weak.

Last edited by Jester986; 07-21-2018 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 07-21-2018, 04:48 PM   #53
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When I was flying the Astar I was always light as you said and always had the nose up and right skid low. Anyway as to what your talking about with the attitide... I did a ferry flight this morning in a 206L4 and remembered to take some video, which I sent to borchi and he'll post. You'll note that When I put right cyclic in it continues to roll until I neautalize it. It then holds the bank and I have to put left cyclic in to level the ship. True a 206 is not a gazelle but as you said a helicopter is a helicopter... Obviously were not going to agree and it sounds like you have much more experience then I do in Europcopters, my suspicion is though that our difference in opinion come down to our rigs. Do you have an older unused joystick you can remove the centering spring from? That made all the difference in the world in the feel of all the helicopters for me.
I will check if has something to do with the FFB. I agree with you... but maybe I am not explain myself in the most correct way.

I'll test it later today and check if it is something to do with the FFB being ON.

I let you guys know.
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Old 07-21-2018, 09:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by borchi_2b View Post
here is the youtube link to the cyclic behavior Jester986 talked about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMF-K7zbTeE

Thanks for sharing this with me. Happy flying and enjoy the anti fire missions
Thank you but that is really hard to see where the cyclic is because the camera is non static. But let me ask you one question Jester986, when you are hovering with you 206L4, do you have your cyclic static? Let me answer... No. You will always make inputs to maintain hover, either because of atmospheric (relative wind) or PIO to maintain the position of the hover.

Now, lets go back to DCS Gazelle... I lift the collective and the helicopter flies up with a little bank angle (roll-yaw coupling I assume) which I correct. I now take my hands off the cyclic and the helicopter remains stable... assuming we have a perfect still atmosphere in DCS, will assume this is what should occur...

Ok... then I input a little side cyclic to a 10 degree bank angle... I let the cyclic neutral... the helicopter just maintains the 10° bank and stays there... perfectly static with a sideways constant velocity... For those that knows about helicopter's dynamics and I am sure you do Jester986, can you tell me if this is the behavior you would expect? No... because as soon as you let your cyclic in neutral... the helicopter fuselage and the aerodynamics effect on the blades (relative wind), changes. The helicopter is statically stable in hover and if no input is made, with time it will become dynamically unstable. The tendency when you neutral the cyclic, it will be to go in the opposite direction (translation).

But go ahead and correct me if I am wrong.

The same goes for translation from hover to forward flight... I have Gazelle in a hover and input forward cyclic to 10° nose down. I then return cyclic to neutral. The Gazelle starts to get airspeed but maintains the 10° nose down without any input... it will only require a bit of pedal input to maintain heading. It gained some altitude, then some speed and when speed was about 90 to 100 kmh started to descend again... Attitude? Remained 10°!

Jester986, is that what you encountered in your ferry flight? No.

Because, when you go from hover to forward flight there is a whole lot to do in the cyclic to compensate for various effects. But even if that was not modeled, at least some blowback should be present which would affect pitch (disk pitch then fuselage pitch). That does not seem to be present.

Again, correct me if I am wrong.

From my RL experience, specially with the B3 which have a lot of power available, when you go from hover to forward flight and beginning feeling ETL effects, you have to really adjust cyclic and anti-torque. As far as I remember, and if I remember correctly, you would put the cyclic more to the left and forward to maintain pitch attitude... which I don't see modeled in the Gazelle.

Also, it is strange that when I input aft cyclic for a fraction of a second and get to neutral again, the helicopter starts to pitch up gradually and then stops at 0°, no matter speeds or attitudes.

Do you guys have this effects? Am I the only one to see the Gazelle as I am describing it?

I will upload the videos of the cases I am describing here, they were filmed with an iPhone but I think you will understand the behavior.

Now... I can't disable FFB because I am flying with a Microsoft FFB 2... and if I turn off FFB I lose the spring tension.

Thank you for you patience and I am sorry if I am the only one to experience your Gazelle this way.
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Last edited by Focha; 07-21-2018 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 07-21-2018, 09:36 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Jester986 View Post
No problem Fragbum! That's why I make an input and then show the attitude indicator so you can see I'm holding 10 degrees of bank with the cyclic in the center position. The video was in response to somebody saying that the helicopter should return to a level attitude when you center cyclic. Something else the video illustrates is how tiny of a movement in the controls it takes to get a response from a helicopter, the point of that is you don't fly a helicopter by thinking about where you are positioning the cyclic you fly it by feel and therefore to me it's irrelevant if Pollychops gazelle does not have an exact one-to-one cyclic position relation to the actual aircraft. I know everyone wants as much realism as possible but the fact is you're not going to learn to actually fly a helicopter on DCs so I think the goal of realism should be for the most realistic feel of flying a helicopter. I personally think the gazelle feels the best out of any Sim I've flown including one at flight safety, the original poster obviously disagrees with me and to be fair it sounds like he is much more experience in similar types of aircraft than I do. My biggest thing is though for a good helicopter experience you need to remove the centering spring or at least find one that's extremely weak.
If you ask me if the FM is better than some FSTD I've been to, I will say yes. But still does not feel right in some conditions. It should feel more dynamic... See the above post about the pitch stopping at 0° no matter what.

Maybe it's just me, my PC and hardware that makes Gazelle feel this way... I don't know. I can only comment based on my experience and what I am getting in the Gazelle.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:05 PM   #56
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Because, when you go from hover to forward flight there is a whole lot to do in the cyclic to compensate for various effects. But even if that was not modeled, at least some blowback should be present which would affect pitch (disk pitch then fuselage pitch). That does not seem to be present.
This is one of my biggest issues, there is no flapback which IRL you really have to push the cyclic forward because the aircraft wants to lift. I'm training in a Cabri G2 which is no Gazelle, but it is a 3 blade rotor with a fenestron so I'd expect to see some similarities?

Here's me the Cabri, with a fixed camera. Pitch forward, set 90% power, and keep the nose down until 50kts, then fly away, and the aircraft wants to fly away!


and in DCS
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:41 PM   #57
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First thing, I've tried to have a respectful conversation and you're getting a little sarcastic with me. But like I've said, you have some valid points. And one thing that did bug me about the Gazelle was when I could take off and hold a stable hover without touching the cyclic and only making pedal inputs. Anyway I'm tired and don't feel like this is productive. I surrender. Agree to disagree. I've given my opinion. Try it with the ffb off though. I've said it many times, no spring tension helps. And maybe I'm crazy but if you have higher expectations from a video game than an FSTD I'd say you're being unrealistic.
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Old 07-22-2018, 02:00 AM   #58
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No problem Fragbum,.
Thanks yes I see that now, I tend to rely on surroundings to get my POV.

Yes the small amount of movement of cyclic was an eye opener when I got some stick time in an R44, which is all I can relate to re helicopter flight. However with cyclic input your'e 100% correct about removing the joystick centering although I would (and did) go even further long story short most joystick controllers have a "built in" dead spot.

Here is a thread about what I found with a joystick controller

TBH I really don't bother with the (absolute) position of the cyclic rather more a case of I put the cyclic to where I need it to give the result I expect. However I do note that in the Gazelle the cyclic is centered and that is likely the way the input has been modelled. I don't know.

@kam
Yes doing circuits in R44 and as you gain forward speed you certainly have to push forward on cyclic to maintain climb rate as the nose wants to come up I was blown away the first time.

@Focha
I am interested in FFB however I understand it's implementation may not be 100% I have an improvised cyclic and collective with the cyclic having no centering and just a small amount of resistance to movement both the cyclic and collective were fairly cheap to make.

Here 's my setup a WIP


One last thing for everybody I would really appreciate a robust and respectful discussion as I might actually learn from it.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:52 PM   #59
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This is one of my biggest issues, there is no flapback which IRL you really have to push the cyclic forward because the aircraft wants to lift. I'm training in a Cabri G2 which is no Gazelle, but it is a 3 blade rotor with a fenestron so I'd expect to see some similarities?

Here's me the Cabri, with a fixed camera. Pitch forward, set 90% power, and keep the nose down until 50kts, then fly away, and the aircraft wants to fly away!


and in DCS

Hi Kam,

you had your nose down in the Gazelle nearly 20°. In your Cabri you never did similar. When you fly the same way in your Cabri you will exceed safe flight the same way and break it.
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Old 07-24-2018, 06:44 PM   #60
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Hi Kam,

you had your nose down in the Gazelle nearly 20°. In your Cabri you never did similar. When you fly the same way in your Cabri you will exceed safe flight the same way and break it.
In that DCS video I ended up being nose down 20deg because I'm anticipating the aircraft pitching up (flapback) which doesn't happen. You can run this test with 5,10,15,20 degrees - the outcome is the same. I just chose to upload that video.

In the video below, you can see what the Cabri WANTS to do after gaining enough forward momentum and without correcting for it by applying forward cyclic. This is what I'm missing in the gazelle, unless it's exempt from this phenomenon?
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