Steam user’s vs longtime supporters… not fair!

Well hold on, the licensing of DCS is for ONE machine, if you want to use DCS on multiple machines this is against the whole idea of DRM. What would hinder you to share your keys with your buddys?

Such think as a moral of "fair play"?

Just like the ED license doesn't hold in some countries, as the countries own copyright laws step way over the ED own licensing. Some countries copyright laws gives full permission to the user to modify the game to get it working as intended, as well given full permission to the buyer to make "a few copies" for backup purposes, as well gives full permission to make "few copies for multiple-devices, family or close-friends". And there is nothing ED can say or do, than stop selling in such countries.

Example in such countries a citizen can walk to a store with their friend and buy a latest Audio CD, Movie Blu-ray or a PC game, split the price to together and then make a copies for each one.

The whole idea is that people are social personnel and they are socialising, meaning listening music together, watching movies together, playing games together etc. Loaning a CD, Movie or game to family member or close friend ain't a crime, but it is a wrong for a company to demand that they need to buy a own copies or "licenses" to be in the same household to listen the music, sit on the same coach watching the same movie or play the game they bought.

Meaning the human rights for friendships socialization and family socialization are above the corporation profits. Requiring a parents to buy each children a own copy of the music/movie/game is morally wrong. Or requiring that someone buys the music multiple times when they want to listen it in their iPod, Car, home audio system and between family members. So buying a single CD, ripping it to multiple versions or making copies is just allowed.

But selling the original copy or it getting damaged or lost, requires you need to destroy every single copy made from it. Meaning you buy the product and then you put it in safe place.

An always on(line) DRM like you propose is not something I would want.

I didn't propose "always online" as I totally dislike those, one of the worst things there are. Idea is just that you need an online to authorize the setup for your license.

I would rather like the abillity to delete/unauthorize an activation (say HDD crash) via ED shop in case I am not able to do it myself anymore. But with the each 30 days a new license this is kind of pointless too.

It would be OK for the license system to just keep a track of 10 installations, check that they are not from different countries or something.

This is currently really a problem like how you can't do the socially accepted thing where you are sharing things with your friends and families to have fun together. Like buying a L-39 license and then flying together with your kid with two computers and training. Instead you need to buy it twice, even when you are in the same household.

But todays business is that every customer is a thief, a pirate and possible criminal stealing everything and causing serious economical damages to the business. And all the systems are designed around that to lock everything down as tightly as possible $$ in the eyes.

When L-39 was released, I recommended a new change to the trainers licensing to make a sense to have a trainer:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2708203&postcount=1

Even a Blizzard allowed long time ago a co-op between friends where you got to download the special version for free, and then connect to someone who had the purchased game and play with them the whole game through, but no one could play the game alone without buying it.

Kids loved that, they bought the game together as games were expensive and then installed the special version from the disk to other computer and then played the game Co-Op in LAN or over Internet.

But we don't anymore really have a Co-Op games anymore (used to mean exactly playing together, instead multiplayer that was over LAN or Internet against each others or something else than co-op).

So things changes and many takes just bad turns gladly in sake of the profits. (Example, why doesn't a Steam Family-Share support the game sharing per game, instead per library? So you could buy games to family library and then have at least your family members to play the different games at the same time, but not the same game at the same time? It would be more fair than the current one where whole library is dedicated to single player at once, prioritizing the one who is the master Family-Account)

Steam has done many things well, like leading the game industry to the Internet era (like who is missing those optical disks?) and easy management of the games and having the social networks etc.

And yet all great and fair things that would be possible, as we are talking about digital key management here, are not allowed anymore. Instead the industry is locking most things to even tighter control.

For some time I wondered what is the hassle between Valve and ED about the key distribution etc. As so many new coders could write key-sharing systems as long you don't need to manually transfer key from physical paper to digital form from handwritten texts.

But now since the last changes in licensing system and update philosophies, I wonder why ED even is in the Steam when the Steam users are hold back for years? It would be better either go fully in for Steam system, or then just drop it off at once if not kept updated and use Steam offering functions for all beta DLC and multi-version gaming versions.

Yeah not reading that, but to throw a wrench in your theory, can't be because deactivations are limited also. As I said, what would stop some friends to share their keys with each other?

 

Guys this is DRM... Works as intended, stopping you from sharing keys / using it on multiple machines. :)

DRM stands for Digital Rights Management. It doesn't stand for "Disallowed shaRing imprisonMent"

And why it is wrong to share something between friends, good close friends (your best friends) or your family members (your father, mother, son, daughter, not your cousin or your grandfather)

Seriously?

It is like claiming that it is wrong to watch a movie with a friends or with family that you have rented or bought, as that copy is only for you, personally only for you and for no one else!

This capitalistic fear that friends and family members are stealing money from companies is just sickening! It is like IRS (Tax Service) is going after some hobbyists who knit couple socks for sale, totaling like 10 pairs in a year like big criminals, while having a secret rules for rich who can gift 30 000-100 000€ for friends and family members without gift taxes.

Its wrong Fri because the line has to be drawn somewhere "close friends " how are ED to know that ? You have an account it can be used on a couple of machines as stated just not at the same time. It all seems perfectly fair to me and unless your PC crashes twice in one month after you have burned through all your activations its a non issue.

If you want an F18 , F14 and a Harrier then we need DRM so that ED gets paid and can continue to pay its programmers. Steam is in effect the same as you can only play on one computer at a time.

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Pretty simple answer. If it were not "allowed" the EULA would simply state the usual "You are allowed to Install the Product on a single machine. You are not entitled to Install or use it on multiple machines".

My guess is, that is the reason, why the activations and deactivations are limited, so you can't install more than 10 copies?

Just to mention, even Microsoft and other companies allow the use off their Software on more than one end-user device.

I would love to switch all my DCS keys to steam, but I'm definitely not going to rebuy at full price.

The devs for IL2 BOS allow you to switch your account from their shop to steam in a one time deal free of charge, but once you do there's no going back to standalone. I'd love to see ED offer this, switch all to steam.

The devs of IL2 did this because steam users give free exposure to all the people on your friends list. Almost all my friends have asked about IL2 when the see me spending vast amount of hours in game.

I think this would be one of those situations where it would benefit both ED and the customer.

I would even be game for a deal where you could buy from the DCS store for standalone and pay an additional 5.00 bucks for a steam key for the same module.

Because you decided to buy a proprietary Steam Version for a different DRM system from Valve.

The same reason why you have to pay all your "Android-Apps" again, if you decide to switch to an iPhone!

 

Would you really ask Tim Cook to give you all the Apps for free, just because you already paid someone else for them?

 

It isn't ED that runs the Steam-Shop. Your complaints may be better addressed to Valve.

Quite frankly that is just nonsense and totally twisting the issue to suit ED's stance...... DCS is a PC app and should run on a PC no matter where you buy modules from; just because you buy a module from a different shop shouldn't mean that another module bought from another shop doesn't work. ED should be the one to sort that issue out not Valve; Valve already allow non steam purchases to be registered and downloaded on STEAM, ED should do the same so long as you have a key to prove original purchase of that module.

BTW: I already know that you can connect to a server if you have STEAM modules and the server is setup with non-steam modules, so there is compatibility there, and all credit to ED for making that so.

Quite frankly that is just nonsense and totally twisting the issue to suit ED's stance...... DCS is a PC app and should run on a PC no matter where you buy modules from; just because you buy a module from a different shop shouldn't mean that another module bought from another shop doesn't work. ED should be the one to sort that issue out not Valve; Valve already allow non steam purchases to be registered and downloaded on STEAM, ED should do the same so long as you have a key to prove original purchase of that module.

 

 

BTW: I already know that you can connect to a server if you have STEAM modules and the server is setup with non-steam modules, so there is compatibility there, and all credit to ED for making that so.

As I said, it is Valve that requires Steam DRM for all the products they sell ("Steam Account required" is the Term I guess).

You are barking up the wrong tree. Ask Valve if they can help you.

It wasn't ED's idea to discontinue providing Keys to Steam. As was announced here, Valve "kindly encouraged" to change that beginning with the Mirage.

Customers decide if they want to bow to Valve's/Steam DRM requirements and EULA or not!

It is you as a customer who can choose to buy the original product from the producer directly, or decide to get a Steam-Locked version, that requires a Steam-Account and a Steam-Client installed, to run the Software.

The problem is I've invested hundreds buying all the modules on DCS store, no F'n way I'm rebuying everything on steam.

Do what 1C / 777 did with IL2 BOS, offer a one time free of charge account switch from DCS to steam. Once all my modules are switched to steam then I'll go ahead and make all my future purchases on steam.

Again, steam exposure benefits DCS when all my steam friends notice me flying DCS for 6 hours a day and want to know why.

You do not get the point... Steam is owned by Valve, not Eagle Dynamics. Like in "different companies".

Why the hell should one company buy you something from another shop for free?

And even if they decided to do so, Steam won't let them have a Steam-Key for free.

They would have to pay for that. The problem is, your beloved Steam Shop isn't a social welfare organistion.

I guess you missed the point that 1C and 777 already offer this third party to steam conversion free of charge for IL2 BOS. How ever they made that happen can't be rocket science and could even be done by DCS. The crux of the deal is once you convert your account to steam, you can no longer buy non steam modules. I would even be willing to still buy from DCS store if they offered a heavily discounted steam key along with standalone as a bundle deal.

If TESCO offers a free Ticket for the Cinema, why should Morrissons?

Because you want it and Morrissons is more convenient located?

It was Valve/Steam who forced the current situation.

Why the hell should ED pay for you for Valves decision to lock their product to the Steam shop?

They should invest that money into an additional Developer, another Map development, maybe, but just because you would "like" to have another key for Steam and "you have seen someone, else do it"... Really ?

From where I stand, as a customer myself, I absolutely object to that sentiment and rather have the revenue invested in development and optimization.

I guess you missed the point that 1C and 777 already offer this third party to steam conversion free of charge for IL2 BOS. How ever they made that happen can't be rocket science and could even be done by DCS. The crux of the deal is once you convert your account to steam, you can no longer buy non steam modules. I would even be willing to still buy from DCS store if they offered a heavily discounted steam key along with standalone as a bundle deal.

How do you know it's not costing 1C/777 money each time someone does it?

Just because it appears free to the user, doesn't make it so.

Maybe they've got some special deal with Valve because 1C are a much bigger company than ED+TFC?

Either way, I'd rather stick with Standalone as you get patches and modules first :)

If you buy from ED store thats one key, If you buy from steam thats one key, You buy from ed store and steam eqauls two keys, That does not mean you will get the NTTR and mirage keys for free via the steam store because they both use starforce etc.

(...) NTTR and mirage keys for free via the steam store because they both use starforce etc.

Worse, they are in fact two different keys, since Valve made that change.

Steam Store uses Steams DRM, ED SF proactive.

That is the reason, you can't switch/mix the versions.

Shag, in the current state of the DCS deal on steam yes you are right you probably can't switch. That's why I brought up the IL2 deal steam has with 1C / 777 because it can be done if ED wants to put forth the effort. If you ask why would ED waste time with this ? Well having dedicated DCS pilots convert to steam benefits ED, every time I fly it lets the 3 dozen people in my steam friends list know I'm flying DCS and creates more interest to the sim from people who would not be exposed to it. That's why it's in ED's interest to redo their steam deal with valve and model it after the one that 1C / 777 have with steam.

The fact that steam installed modules can connect with non-steam installed modules via a server for online sessions is great and I applaud ED for making that possible.... That in itself really solves most of the issues in my mind.

However, from what I've read here and elsewhere, the compatibility issue seems to revolve around two different DRM security features, namely Starforce and Valve. It seems to me that it would benefit ED much more to totally convert to Valves system of DRM checking than sticking with "Starforce"... I mean who are "Starforce"? Does Starforce provide you with a vast customer base to promote your product together with a very user friendly system to update and manage all your applications?

If ED converted to the Valve system and drop the Starforce DRM system then ED could still sell their products via their online store as well as the steam store as not everyone likes steam, but the big selling point would be that the module keys from ED Store would be compatible with the same Steam store DCS module; that would be a big plus in customers minds and something Steam are already doing for it's customers:ie, allowing product keys bought from a different site to download and install that same product and run on Steam.

ED have already been paid the money for that same module so it shouldn't matter to ED that their module was bought on Steam and not in the ED Store?

Always keep your customers happy I say: "Were there's a will there's a way".

I mean who are "Starforce"? Does Starforce provide you with a vast customer base to promote your product together with a very user friendly system to update and manage all your applications?

Currently it provides the DRM for the developers and 3rd parties, to manage individual test builds, pre-alpha builds for bug fixing, nightly builds and campaign development on a daily basis, which Steam can not provide.

At least as far as I've read here.

As I said, it is Valve that requires Steam DRM for all the products they sell ("Steam Account required" is the Term I guess).

 

You are barking up the wrong tree. Ask Valve if they can help you.

Steam Account ain't a key management system by itself. It is just a "vendor lock" by customer registration system in the gentle manner DRM.

Valve offers three kind features for the Steam games:

1) Third Party DRM that is up to developer to implement. Meaning game developers can choose what ever method they seem to fit, using from UPlay to BattleEye or any similar things.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm

2) A valve own key system that only requires that Steam executable is running (and user authorized computer checked at some point) same time as running the game.

3) No key system required, meaning you don't need to have Steam running, not even installed if not wanted. You can even just copy the game directory from Steam library to another computer and run it there without ever touching whole Steam.

It is question what the publisher wants to implement.

Of course a Valve DRM is way better than many others, as it is a per user, not per computer or per installation. But it does have a downsides like you can't do legally that you are allowed like copy a game to a friend to play simultaneously or separately even! Or in some cases to do a functional backup because the Steam update system is terrible by requiring an updated game files and if it is not, it will download whole game, regardless a slightly older version is locally available (this can be pain in situations where game is 20-50GB by size, and whole game is downloaded instead the 500-1000MB update after installation).

The DRM problem is that in many ways it takes away the citizens own rights given by the law, only to be suppressed by the company in a another country and some cases even more strictly than really required.

But how many is really ready to go and challenge all the companies for years legal fight?

Some individuals has done so in the smaller countries and gone after bigger corporations like Microsoft and IBM, only to win after 10 years and forcing those giants to simple bow the country IP laws giving the users the rights.

But in some cases even larger authorities like example EU, has had years fight with corporations like a Valve, to get the EU wide 14 day return period of the product for the customers. First Valve trying to play around with the words like Valve customer didn't buy the license, they only "subscribed" to the service so every game was just a lease, instead owned license to the software (a physical copy) and that got them the win. http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Valve-Wins-Against-VZBV-Pre-Owned-Games-Steam-62146.html

Time after time many corporations has tried to make more profits by abusing the DRM capabilities. Like example music and movie industry tried to really lock so you would be required to buy the audio/movie so many times as many copies you wanted, regardless that the law allowed customers to make copies. All the talks about how their DRM was just protecting everyone etc was such a crap talk. Like looking example the Apple and their DRM, only to really remove it, and nothing bad really happened, people just started to buy even more music. https://www.wired.com/2014/03/kill-itunes-drm/

Like what does ED plan to do for countries that allows their citizens to make few copies of their purchased music, movies, games (software) and even share them to their family and best friends to be enjoyed together from multiple devices simultaneously? Or how about allowing to re-sell or give-away the purchased material if so decided?

There is always the two sides of the whole case, but at some point the ties will turn and consumer will win more freedom, or then whole industry to start dying more.

Now it is just a silly (if you ask me) how a game delivered via internet connection or via DVD-ROM has difference, and simply even just by making something delivered via physical media but requiring a online activation making it like online-distribution is just an another odd thing, where big money is lobbying against the freedoms of people.

"The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many."

Steam vs ED store is just a one tiny "blip" in a radar, that only really touches minor part of whole gaming industry.

At least we do have options like GOG.com for those who are willing to avoid more special games...

Valve offers three kind features for the Steam games:

 

1) Third Party DRM that is up to developer to implement. Meaning game developers can choose what ever method they seem to fit, using from UPlay to BattleEye or any similar things.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm

 

2) A valve own key system that only requires that Steam executable is running (and user authorized computer checked at some point) same time as running the game.

 

3) No key system required, meaning you don't need to have Steam running, not even installed if not wanted. You can even just copy the game directory from Steam library to another computer and run it there without ever touching whole Steam.

 

It is question what the publisher wants to implement.

 

It does not look like it is just a "question what the publisher wants to implement".

(...)"We learned from Valve/Steam that they will be unable to continue merging DCS keys purchased outside of the Steam Store."(...)

Source: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2085202#post2085202

(...)"1- Our partners at Valve/Steam have strongly encouraged us to do so over the past year."(...)

Source: http://steamcommunity.com/app/223750/discussions/0/2741975115067023612/

...and another issue, the way development for DCS works, currently.

EDIT - to be clear. I do not like the whole concept of DRM either, as it has its inherent flaws, but Valves Steam isn't the solution, it is more part of the problem.

Currently it provides the DRM for the developers and 3rd parties, to manage individual test builds, pre-alpha builds for bug fixing, nightly builds and campaign development on a daily basis, which Steam can not provide.

 

At least as far as I've read here.

Yea, I don't buy that. IL2, Xplane 11, and FSX are all on steam and deal with all those issues you mentioned with no problem. I think it's more a matter of ED not wanting to put forth the effort.

Why anyone would use the Steam version of DCS is beyond me.

Yea, I don't buy that. IL2, Xplane 11, and FSX are all on steam and deal with all those issues you mentioned with no problem. I think it's more a matter of ED not wanting to put forth the effort.

Why anyone would use the Steam version of DCS is beyond me.

Why parrot this up and down? People HAVE explained this time and time again, not the users concern. Steam users and the steam client are a thing. Deal with it and don't be passive aggressive about it. (Because it's pretty clear where this is going)

Yea, I don't buy that. IL2, Xplane 11, and FSX are all on steam and deal with all those issues you mentioned with no problem. I think it's more a matter of ED not wanting to put forth the effort.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. No idea about IL2 but FSX and XP11 have the same issues as DCS with Steam. FSX has a own version, it's called "FSX-STEAM" ... XP11 has standalone and Steam versions. (10 the same) edit: To clarify, like with DCS those keys are not interchangeable. My Xp11 standalone can't be activated on Steam, normal FSX version not on Steam etc.

I'm not saying DCS should make your keys available on both platforms, just saying it would be great to allow a user to switch to steam account permanently. It seemed this was offered initially then went away, but I think it's worth it for ED to bring this back.

I'm not saying DCS should make your keys available on both platforms, just saying it would be great to allow a user to switch to steam account permanently. It seemed this was offered initially then went away, but I think it's worth it for ED to bring this back.

That was the option from Steam (Valve), to accept ED keys and integrate them into the Steam(!) database.

So, what I am trying to tell you all the time: you may want to ask STEAM (Valve) to accept/integrate ED keys into THEIR database, again.

It is not an ED issue!