Jump to content

Gun is still weak


Echo179

Recommended Posts

What is footage of a couple of F-15s flying over a tank covered with bad pyro supposed to prove?

 

 

Actually, you have a point there. The tank isn't even moving under what would be a tremendous impact stress. And the supposed impact points show no damage whatsoever after impact. That's actually pretty funny.

But.....I have seen an A10 attack a T-55 (on a range mind you). I have seen the aftermath. It was 30 plus years ago but I remember what it looks like. It's pretty intense and the tanks were certainly completely ripped apart where they were hit. I'm not saying it's fact, but I know what I saw.

That being said.........

Read the following. It kind of validates ED and what I saw at the same time. What I conclude from this report is that there is no way ED would or should accommodate this level of damage detail. So I'm probably not going to worry about it. The report is a great demonstration of both the power and the limitations of the GAU 8.

My apologies to ED for my remark earlier. :smilewink:

 

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a522446.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well that second video showed the tank starting to burn up. So there is that.

hsb

HW Spec in Spoiler

---

 

i7-10700K Direct-To-Die/OC'ed to 5.1GHz, MSI Z490 MB, 32GB DDR4 3200MHz, EVGA 2080 Ti FTW3, NVMe+SSD, Win 10 x64 Pro, MFG, Warthog, TM MFDs, Komodo Huey set, Rverbe G1

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, the guy you are addressing isn't too far from the truth as far as I know. I only say as far as I know because I've been out of the military for 30 years and don't keep up on the modern tanks. But when I was in the Army, we use to go out and watch A10's obliterate T55's in just a few short seconds. The T55 tank was like warm butter being pummeled with a BB gun. I do remember seeing what the A-10 cannon did to a T-72, not as it happened but we looked at one and it was pretty messy also. No tank could have survived that kind of damage. Never seen a T-80 as there were no captured ones on the range that I knew of.

As for T-90, past my time. The A10 also has trouble with the German WWII tanks in DCS and that's just out and out silly.

There are some issues that ED never seems interested in addressing, and this is one of them. And you can say that the new damage model is coming all day long. With ED, I believe it when it gets here, not before. Sun rises in the East..........:music_whistling:

 

 

p1t1o probably thinks a MBT is some kind of magic vehicle that cannot be damaged or disabled unless it blows up like in a Michael Bay movie, attacking a tank from the high rear is going to wreck and disable most of the sensors/systems exposed on it and if only one round pierces the main hull it's going to bounce a lot in there until it loses it's energy, disabling the crew.

 

Modern tanks like the T90 have reactive armor "blocks" that protect it from kinetic weapons, repeated rounds like the GAU-8 are canceling this effect since they trigger the reactive aspect on the few first hits, after that it's the regular layered armor that has to protect the tank from hull penetration, which again is not necessary to disable/destroy a tank, I would doubt a T90 with 200 rounds up his arse would be very effective to continue battle as if nothing would have happened, and very unlikely to be able to continue to engage any targets, older tanks like the T55 with it's 30/60mm turret and 16/33mm roof armor would be swiss cheese in an instant :blow:

 

 

ED will do research and probably come up with the best damage model ever made in a computer game this far :thumbup:

Simflyin' since 1985 :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't Ollie say, in his interview back in 2016, even with the relatively up-to-date tanks he saw in Iraq it only took a few (IIRC he said 2) hits?

There is also more than M, F and C kill. There is also a crew kill (K kill IIRC) which I imagine would be pretty possible with the amount of spalling a 30mm is likley to create.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p1t1o probably thinks that he is catching quite a lot of stick for disagreeing with the statement that the GAU8 can reliably disable or kill "any tanks on the planet".

 

 

But when I was in the Army, we use to go out and watch A10's obliterate T55's in just a few short seconds.

 

 

The T55 was the 1970-era tank I was referring to as one of the last pedigree of tanks that could be reliably destroyed by a GAU8. And the T55 is a pretty fricken old tank! In service 1959!

 

I even went so far as to say that I agree that the DCS damage model sill makes the GAU8 a little weak.

 

***

 

Isnt it a bit much - a bit fanboyish - to insist that the GAU8 can kill *anything*?

Thought this was a sim crowd that cared about accuracy...


Edited by p1t1o
Link to comment
Share on other sites

... but as you said there is no win state for simply disabling the tank in really any mission I have flown. Would be nice if such a win condition was implemented.. more realistic too.

Same problems with aircraft strafed on the ground. You can shoot them to pieces so wings and tail section are off, it's not counted as a kill.

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
I hope that once they get the F-18 done, they will take a break from making any more modules until they come back and fix the old ones, and the problems with the world itself.

 

The Hornet team will most likely move to the Viper, they would be working on modules as that is what they do, work is always ongoing with older bugs and the core game itself.

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p1t1o probably thinks that he is catching quite a lot of stick for disagreeing with the statement that the GAU8 can reliably disable or kill "any tanks on the planet".

 

 

 

 

 

The T55 was the 1970-era tank I was referring to as one of the last pedigree of tanks that could be reliably destroyed by a GAU8. And the T55 is a pretty fricken old tank! In service 1959!

 

I even went so far as to say that I agree that the DCS damage model sill makes the GAU8 a little weak.

 

***

 

Isnt it a bit much - a bit fanboyish - to insist that the GAU8 can kill *anything*?

Thought this was a sim crowd that cared about accuracy...

 

 

it's demonstrably weaker than it should be though, it's dispersion is roughly 3 times what it should be.

 

 

 

vulcan has the same problem. been an issue for nearly a decade now with no fix so anybody's guess why it hasn't been resolved yet (considering it's a one-line change IIRC)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Ground unit damage modelling is planned to be improved, with the ME you can set states of vehicles based on damage level as well.

 

I have the same thoughts. Fallowing the same tactics I have never been able to kill a tank with the GAU I can disable it but a full kill has not happened. Anything lighter than a tank though and it chews it up.

 

 

Interestingly though looking through youtube videos of the gun employment on an vehicle. There are many videos of the GAU obliterating soft targets like Hummers and light apcs. But virtually none of it "destroying a tank" so I did some further research.

 

 

While the GAU was designed to penetrate armor the most effective use of the gun is against soft targets facilitating its CAS role with more safty to near by friendly units. further more there are three states of "death" for a tank.

 

 

Mobility kill: in that you effectively stop it from moving at will on the batttle field .

 

 

A fire power kill: effectively stopping it from friing its main weapon.

 

 

A Catastophic kill: destrying the tanks and crews ability to fight. The GAU is designed for the former 2. The tactic is to hit the tank from the rear were the armor is weakest hitting the power plant. or from the side hitting the tracks to disable its movment or a steep dive angle attacking the barrel of the gun. These tactics work... in realife and effectively "kill" the tank. but as you said there is no win state for simply disabling the tank in really any mission I have flown. Would be nice if such a win condition was implemented.. more realistic too.

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

p1t1o probably thinks that he is catching quite a lot of stick for disagreeing with the statement that the GAU8 can reliably disable or kill "any tanks on the planet".

 

 

 

 

 

The T55 was the 1970-era tank I was referring to as one of the last pedigree of tanks that could be reliably destroyed by a GAU8. And the T55 is a pretty fricken old tank! In service 1959!

 

I even went so far as to say that I agree that the DCS damage model sill makes the GAU8 a little weak.

 

***

 

Isnt it a bit much - a bit fanboyish - to insist that the GAU8 can kill *anything*?

Thought this was a sim crowd that cared about accuracy...

 

 

p1t1o

T-90-ET_2010_ft_view.jpg

 

 

 

As you can see on this picture after 200 rounds from the GAU-8 coming in at around 3500ft/sec, everything on the turret will be blown to "smithereens" (sorry ED :smilewink:) and this tank is going to be disabled since it will be very hard to engage anything with no periscope, no antennas, no sensors, no external machine gun or even with a damaged track, even if no rounds have actually penetrated the hull, thus disabling the tank and making it vulnerable to other attacks, in other words you're done, and that sir is not being fanboyish it's being accurate and realistic... 200 rounds from the GAU-8 will disable and probably destroy anything that has wheels or tracks regardless of armor protection. Like it or not


Edited by Dafiew

Simflyin' since 1985 :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

200 hits on target? maybe 10-20.

 

 

Don't expect anything lifelike from a lifebar damage model. To see more true-to-life results we need not only armor penetration model but systems modeling too. Once in SABOW my T-62 had 6 penetrations from M-60 hits but none of them damaged any system or crew member. And then I got burned from an RKG hand grenade to the engine air intake.

ППС  АВТ 100 60 36  Ф <  |  >  !  ПД  К

i5-10600k/32GB 3600/SSD NVME/4070ti/2560x1440'32/VPC T-50 VPC T-50CM3 throttle Saitek combat rudder

Link to comment
Share on other sites

200 hits on target? maybe 10-20.

 

Pretty sure that's just pyrotechnics.

Devils Canyon i7 4790K @ 4.9GHz |16gb DDR3 | MSI GeForce GTX 1080Ti | Samsung 860 EVO

 

Thrustmaster Warthog | Virpil WarBRD | Virpil TM-50CM2 Grip | VKB-Sim T-Rudder Mk.IV | Acer X34A (21:9) | Oculus Rift S

 

A-10C | AJS-37 | AV-8B | C-101 | F/A-18C | F-14A/B | F-5E | KA-50 | L-39 | M-2000C | SA342 | Spitfire LF Mk IX | UH-1H

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Running through an instant action mission, and I executed a gun attack on a T-55. My first few passes, with a deep dive angle, from the rear, effectively did no damage, even firing at .5nm slant range? I continued my attack, and only seemed to score damaging hits (hits that would deplete the health bar in f10 menu) at .2nm slant range. Still, it took multiple runs to kill a single tank. Considering the GAU-8's PGU-14/B API round is capable of penetrating 59mm if armor at 1000 meters, and .5nm is around 915 meters, I should have over 60mm of penetration. There T-55 has armor between 16-79mm armor except for the front.

 

As per the debriefing, I'm hitting it once or twice per pass. As per tacview, each pass, I'm hitting it 20-50 times.

 

Either ground vehicles need a rework on their damage model, the gun is nerfed, or his aren't being calculated properly.

 

Also, HEI rounds don't seem to do jack to infantry, but I believe that's a commonly known issue.

 

Only every 5th round is an AP round. It is why they call it a combat mix. The other 4 rounds are HE. Also you likely end up with angled shots so some AP rounds will deflect off the armor.

 

The 59mm penetration rating is at 30 degrees. So if your coming in at a 20 degree angle and hitting the top of say the armor over the engine, it might bounce.

 

Was curious about armor thickness not sure what a good source is but found this:

Wikipedia:

205 mm turret front

130 mm turret sides

60 mm turret rear

30 mm turret roof

120 mm hull front at 60° (100 mm after 1949)[1]

79 mm hull upper sides

20 mm hull lower sides

60 mm at 0° hull rear

20 mm hull bottom

33-16 mm hull roof

 

Tank Encyclopedia:

Frontal glacis 120 mm (4.7 in), sides 80 (3.15 in), rear 45 (1.77 in), turret front 200 (7.87 in), roof 30 (1.18 in), bottom 20 mm (0.79 in)

 

Another thing is, your firing at a dot on the ground, did the AP round hit the turret, did it hit the upper armor in the side / rear. Even though the gun is extremely accurate. You really have no way to 100% guarantee your round is targeted for the hull roof until you are super close range and by that time you are risking slamming into the ground.

 

So you hit 20-50 so 4-10 AP round hits. Which of those rounds hit upper armor areas that are the thicker areas. Did it hit a hatch handle, a log hanging off the side, a tool box, a water can, etc.


Edited by Kazius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

I did some testing, and just did a quick search on the GAU-8 as far as optimal range and dispersal expectations, and I honestly dont see much wrong besides the damage states of ground vehicles. If I flew a nice clean pass In could kill a T-55 with no issue if I wobbled at the wrong time, or didnt line it up smoothly, my hits would fall short or I would over shoot. Unless someone can show me something really good to test against, I am not seeing a problem. The GAU-8 is a powerful gun, no doubt, but you still have to fire it the way its meant to be fired.

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did some testing, and just did a quick search on the GAU-8 as far as optimal range and dispersal expectations, and I honestly dont see much wrong besides the damage states of ground vehicles. If I flew a nice clean pass In could kill a T-55 with no issue if I wobbled at the wrong time, or didnt line it up smoothly, my hits would fall short or I would over shoot. Unless someone can show me something really good to test against, I am not seeing a problem. The GAU-8 is a powerful gun, no doubt, but you still have to fire it the way its meant to be fired.

 

It should be able to get a kill on T-72 T-80 and T-90 as none of them have magical armour on the top of turret or engine compartment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only every 5th round is an AP round. It is why they call it a combat mix. The other 4 rounds are HE. Also you likely end up with angled shots so some AP rounds will deflect off the armor.

 

 

You got that part the other way around. It is 4 AP rounds for every HE round.

 

 

I did some testing, and just did a quick search on the GAU-8 as far as optimal range and dispersal expectations, and I honestly dont see much wrong besides the damage states of ground vehicles. If I flew a nice clean pass In could kill a T-55 with no issue if I wobbled at the wrong time, or didnt line it up smoothly, my hits would fall short or I would over shoot. Unless someone can show me something really good to test against, I am not seeing a problem. The GAU-8 is a powerful gun, no doubt, but you still have to fire it the way its meant to be fired.

 

Isn't the main issue here discussed, being its accuracy ? Yeah we get that the damage model is not detailed enough and to be honest, the gun can't straight up kill modern MBTs, it can disable them , which on a battlefield is being as good as dead....

 

So yeah, the gun accuracy, not the damage.... I am sure there have been people linking to what the gun accuracy's for the M61 and GAU-8 should be and Snoopy can probably link you some docs

'Shadow'

 

Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I flew it again and had kills on tanks on first pass every time. I think people just need more practice.

 

Shadow KT you are right, I misunderstood what I read a long time ago or forgot.

 

I don't think the gun is inaccurate. I have scored tank kills from quite a ways away. Even in the game it is by far the best and most accurate gun for A2G.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Isn't the main issue here discussed, being its accuracy ? Yeah we get that the damage model is not detailed enough and to be honest, the gun can't straight up kill modern MBTs, it can disable them , which on a battlefield is being as good as dead....

 

So yeah, the gun accuracy, not the damage.... I am sure there have been people linking to what the gun accuracy's for the M61 and GAU-8 should be and Snoopy can probably link you some docs

 

But the accuracy is most dependant on the pilot, I am sure Snoopy has better info than I have, but nothing will fix a bad gun pass, and in my experience, a bad run can make a huge difference on the results.


Edited by NineLine

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, this is a cinematic of two F-15s flying over a tank covered with squibs. How anyone can think this is either real or relevant is beyond explanation.

 

 

Quote: DowntownSIX]Pretty sure that's just pyrotechnics.

 

 

Squibs? Pyro? Have you ever hit a piece of metal with a hammer? Haven't you seen HEI rounds before?

 

 

hsb

HW Spec in Spoiler

---

 

i7-10700K Direct-To-Die/OC'ed to 5.1GHz, MSI Z490 MB, 32GB DDR4 3200MHz, EVGA 2080 Ti FTW3, NVMe+SSD, Win 10 x64 Pro, MFG, Warthog, TM MFDs, Komodo Huey set, Rverbe G1

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...