A/G Radar Worries and ED work overload.

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Hi,

 

Based on client feedback many, many more are looking forward to further AA radar and TGP development. Also, for aircraft like the Viper and Hornet, the AG radar has very limited utility these days. Most of the AG sensor work is done with the pod now.

 

Thanks

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=219023 :thumbup:

As for putting new jets out before others have finished, i'd hazard a guess that it is a lot about cash flow. I'd rather suffer concurrent releases getting there eventually than the company going bump because they had to absolutely finish something 100% before it came to market or before they could start anything else.

This was my guess as well. There were serious delays and technical hurdles migrating to DCSW 2 and the Hornet (the true flagship successor to 2010's Warthog) arrived years later than planned. I also see it as a potential warning. The actual need to release concurrent unfinished modules in order to stay fluid, if that's the case, could be a concern.

I don't think community want ag radar because they need it, but they (including me) are corious because most of us never used a ag radar so far.

If I'm being honest, yeah, same. It's useful for aircraft that don't carry a TGP, but is pretty inconsequential to the modern jets ED's releasing. It's great that third parties can access the functionality though.

Hi,

 

Based on client feedback many, many more are looking forward to further AA radar and TGP development. Also, for aircraft like the Viper and Hornet, the AG radar has very limited utility these days. Most of the AG sensor work is done with the pod now.

 

Thanks

This is only true because:

1. Most DCS players have no idea of the capabilities of surface radars.

2. Most current day ops revolve around low intensity conflict with lots of civilians around. Those scenarios makes little use of all the capabilities of surface radars (such as an extremely large scan zone).

There's a reason why AG radars are added to every single attack aircraft out there, including helicopters (think Apache Longbow) and surveillance aircrafts (E-8 JSTARS, Global Hawk etc).

This is only true because:

1. Most DCS players have no idea of the capabilities of surface radars.

2. Most current day ops revolve around low intensity conflict with lots of civilians around. Those scenarios makes little use of all the capabilities of surface radars (such as an extremely large scan zone).

 

 

There's a reason why AG radars are added to every single attack aircraft out there, including helicopters (think Apache Longbow) and surveillance aircrafts (E-8 JSTARS, Global Hawk etc).

I would tend to disagree to an extent. I think Wags is right in that you're only really going to be using AG radar for quite a small subset of the AG mission set. The pod is the better choice for the majority of it.

I agree that the AG radar is something that needs to come but, like the man said, priorities. And let them optimise it too, god knows they get enough heat about 'optimisation' over on the reddits.

Personally though, I agree with you. Back in Jane's F-15, there was nothing better than radar mapping an area, finding your target, and unleashing a standoff missile at it, or even long range toss bombing. I preferred that so much compared to tank plinking missions.

I would tend to disagree to an extent. I think Wags is right in that you're only really going to be using AG radar for quite a small subset of the AG mission set. The pod is the better choice for the majority of it.

 

I agree that the AG radar is something that needs to come but, like the man said, priorities. And let them optimise it too, god knows they get enough heat about 'optimisation' over on the reddits.

 

Personally though, I agree with you. Back in Jane's F-15, there was nothing better than radar mapping an area, finding your target, and unleashing a standoff missile at it, or even long range toss bombing. I preferred that so much compared to tank plinking missions.

See the link of their own poll where they asked us what feautures we want. Itd been a year since then and most of the top votet features arent in game. Priorities yea right...

See the link of their own poll where they asked us what feautures we want. Itd been a year since then and most of the top votet features arent in game. Priorities yea right...

From the ones with more than 100 votes (top 7), all are done or almost done except AG radar. I think the hornet is in a pretty good state right now. In order of most votes:

ATFLIR Targeting Pod

HARM

Air to Surface Radar

A/A Radar TWS/RAID/AZ EL/LTWS - coming this month

Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System (JHMCS)

Data Link (MIDS / Link-16 / IFF) - not complete but in a decent state

Guided Bombs

I believe ED also lost their original engineer on the A/G radar due to whatever reason. Image an engineer writing up a bunch of code, only to have it left unattended for who knows how long, a new engineer coming in and having to go through the entire thing whilest updating it to latest standards, especially if the previous engineer was writing for version 1.5 or something, while in the meantime we have arrived at 2.5.5

From the ones with more than 100 votes (top 7), all are done or almost done except AG radar. I think the hornet is in a pretty good state right now. In order of most votes:

 

ATFLIR Targeting Pod

HARM

Air to Surface Radar

A/A Radar TWS/RAID/AZ EL/LTWS - coming this month

Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System (JHMCS)

Data Link (MIDS / Link-16 / IFF) - not complete but in a decent state

Guided Bombs

For ATFLIR I guess Litening counts, but that itself is definitely not complete. HARM is about 70% complete. I don't think Az/El is coming this month, and there's other features not even mentioned for this month yet to do for it. Also, JDAM/JSOW are not complete either.

Yeah nothing is complete yet, but they have made good progress, and we are continuing to see regular updates... and considering they early access (which the F-18 is still in) agreement imo that is all we can ask for:

"Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs. The time a product remains in Early Access can vary widely based on the scope of the project, technical hurdles, and how complete the module is when it enters Early Access. Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible. An Early Access module can be played on both the Open Beta and Release versions of DCS World. Once the module exits Early Access, you will automatically have the Release version."

Yeah nothing is complete yet, but they have made good progress, and we are continuing to see regular updates... and considering they early access (which the F-18 is still in) agreement imo that is all we can ask for:

 

"Early Access is an option for you to play this module in an early state, but it will be incomplete with bugs. The time a product remains in Early Access can vary widely based on the scope of the project, technical hurdles, and how complete the module is when it enters Early Access. Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible. An Early Access module can be played on both the Open Beta and Release versions of DCS World. Once the module exits Early Access, you will automatically have the Release version."

OMG, please don't ok?

OMG, please don't ok?

It's the truth, steady progress is being made and lots of things (to f18, to core, or to other modules) are added and improved all the time. Just gotta be patient and enjoy the journey lol. You telling me that without 100% features you can't enjoy it? Then you shouldn't have bought it in early access... truth is if you want 100% completeness and accuracy to RL it will probably never come because of classified or unavailable information. Might as well join the air force.

I don't know the answer to my question but i'm curious.

Are there any planes made by ED in the last 5 years that are 100% finished now? 10 years?

100% finished means there are no updates planned or needed.

I don't know exactly when A-10C came out but that has been 'complete' for a while now.

I believe ED also lost their original engineer on the A/G radar due to whatever reason. Image an engineer writing up a bunch of code, only to have it left unattended for who knows how long, a new engineer coming in and having to go through the entire thing whilest updating it to latest standards, especially if the previous engineer was writing for version 1.5 or something, while in the meantime we have arrived at 2.5.5

This is actually true, and it really shot ED in the foot in terms of A/G radar development. Realistically speaking, it's probably going to be the last thing finished for the F/A-18.

If thats the only problem noone would be upset with them. Problem is they keep developing new modules that keep incrising their workload without putting effort in completing already relesed ones.

I think the A/G radar may be more complete than people realize. It sounds like the JF-17 is directly using ED's radar API, meaning we could see similar functionality in the Hornet very quickly, but they're waiting on some more optimization to decrease the framerate hit.

having a HUD cue/marker for the FLIR/Targetting pod would be as good as ground radar for me atm tbh, its my current most anticipated feature I have been looking forward to :)

From the ones with more than 100 votes (top 7), all are done or almost done except AG radar. I think the hornet is in a pretty good state right now. In order of most votes:

 

ATFLIR Targeting Pod we dont have atflir.

HARM 2/3 done

Air to Surface Radar

A/A Radar TWS/RAID/AZ EL/LTWS - coming this month

Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System (JHMCS) missing A/G funcrionality, possibly more.

Data Link (MIDS / Link-16 / IFF) - not complete but in a decent state

Guided Bombs

Fixed it for ya.

I think the A/G radar may be more complete than people realize. It sounds like the JF-17 is directly using ED's radar API, meaning we could see similar functionality in the Hornet very quickly, but they're waiting on some more optimization to decrease the framerate hit.

Yeah, i wouldnt be surprised if the jf17 isnt the stealth tesbed for AG radar.

I think the A/G radar may be more complete than people realize. It sounds like the JF-17 is directly using ED's radar API, meaning we could see similar functionality in the Hornet very quickly, but they're waiting on some more optimization to decrease the framerate hit.

Indeed, Wags commented on the status of AG radar work in June:

Other Hornet items in work include the Litening targeting pod, Harpoon anti-ship mode, INS and GPS full simulation and alignment, dynamic launch zones for JDAM and JSOW, and initial work on the air-to-ground radar.

There is a difference between the core AG radar rendering technology and the implementation of that tech to a specific pod. The latter just started.

 

Thanks

First, I am preaching to the choir when I say that the world that ED has created is a dream come true for many of us.

That being said, it's VERY easy for a business to seek "progress payments" on work ahead of its actual accomplishment. That money gets spent and to continue the work on what is real another progress payment is needed... and so on and so on.

We saw this with Microsoft over the years. Their "progress payment" came from releasing a new version of Windows, even though the old version was full of bugs. But the cash infusion came with the release of a new system.

All those arguments about ED being responsible for the core products, and having other contracts are true, but the world is not fixed in place and businesses are free to expand and contract as needed. The problem is once a new module is released, over time it changes from a source of profit to a source of expense, because after awhile the sales decrease and all one has left is the good faith of the company. I've no doubt there is good faith here. But the evidence suggests (years later waiting for promised features) that good faith may not be enough.

I don't know what the answer is, not purchasing new modules may very well cause a failure cascade. On the other hand, paying for new modules to finance completion of old modules may be putting off the inevitable. I don't know.

All I can say is enjoy each and every day of your life, and that includes your "sim life" and hope for the best, because that's all we in the community can do.

Just my 2 cents

Yes thats what I am saying. I do realize it takes a lot of money to produce these modules. But stacking every now and then a new complex module that will in half a year cause probably more harm then good financialy. Becuase like you said those modules will turn from profit to a expense eventually and I don't see that as a good thing in a long run. I wish them all the best in their business but aswell I want us consumers to not pay the ultimate price at the end.

This is only true because:

1. Most DCS players have no idea of the capabilities of surface radars.

More like some has too high expectations from them when context is a cold war era (and even 90-00's tech) and modern military, as there are basic concepts trained to ground units how to conceal against A-G radars, FLIR, NV and all normal visual and audible spotting and detection.

2. Most current day ops revolve around low intensity conflict with lots of civilians around. Those scenarios makes little use of all the capabilities of surface radars (such as an extremely large scan zone).[\quote]

 

Those scenarios are very optimal for such operations as no one is really trying to hide from you....

 

There's a reason why AG radars are added to every single attack aircraft out there, including helicopters (think Apache Longbow) and surveillance aircrafts (E-8 JSTARS, Global Hawk etc).

 

Yes, and you do not get as glamorous use from those as people think, unless very modern and in very optimal situations.

 

Even a top of the art A-G radar from cold war era were not amazing like today. Sure you spot an aircraft on airfield from 40-50 nmi range, but it is super easy as it is complex model against flat smooth surface.

 

Even when Apache Longbow offered the A-G radar, it was laser guided Hellfires that were used as radar variant wasn't reliable/accurate enough (and costly). Even today the FLIR is the way to go.... Look AH-64E as example.

 

While I am waiting A-G to arrive, I am not expecting it to be glorious "all seeing eye", but more about fearing that DCS limited ground units modeling renders it OP.