BF 109 k4 weapons update?

Here it is, Sith.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=170388

 

Its a pretty serious piece, if you glance at the picture, it carried cc. 40 kg warhead a 10 kg explosive charge.

 

 

I.

Thanks for posting the photo.

That worhead is no joke but it's funny how big it is compared to the man and considering it would be flown by a small fighter like a 109.

"It was unpopular amongst the pilots" shouldn't dictate what an module comes with. With that logic the GAR-8 (AIM-9B) on the F-86 shouldn't be in as an example. Pilots don't dictate operational strategy. In an alternative history situation where the war diverted historically and the Germans largely won back superiority of the skies and many of its 109's reverted back to ground attack, the gunpods would have been extensively used or if for example the allies weren't able to design long range interceptors to protect their bombers they would have also been used extensively. Now these examples aren't likely, but it is basicly just to show that they weren't used because of the goings of the war and would have been used if the war had turned out different.

The real thing was sanctioned to carry

 

250 kg or 500 kg bombs of

- SC series fragmentation type

- SD series SAP (D= thick walled)

- AB series Cluster bombs, load with either -

-- SD 2 "Butterly" fragmentation SD 2 bomblets or

-- SD 4 HL HEAT AT bomblets

-- a great variation of other cluster bomblet mixes existed but these two were the most important

 

-21 cm WGr 21 rockets (early versions only but that's what we have)

-2 cm MG 151/20 gondola cannon

 

Now the 2cm gunpods and the 21 cm rockets were rarely carried, because they fell out of preference by late 1944 because of Allied escorts, but the bombs were carried fairly often, i.e. against advancing US troops in Bavaria.

 

Its really a let down that the module does not support but a fraction of the possible loadouts, especially as the bombs for example are re-usable also for 190/262 too. So the only loadout that is 109K specific is the gundpods and the WGr 21 launchers.

I did not know about the cluster bombs! Thanks for the information.

From what I have read the majority of Kurfürst were shipped with the cannon pods which pilots apparently didn't like due to the effect on performance.

Surely the pilots were allowed to remove them or were they forced to carry them until order to go against bomber formations?

From what I have read the majority of Kurfürst were shipped with the cannon pods which pilots apparently didn't like due to the effect on performance.

 

Surely the pilots were allowed to remove them or were they forced to carry them until order to go against bomber formations?

I can't answer this but I'm interested. I will add that right now the BF-109's armament simply isn't optimized for A2G missions. Although the BF-109 was never that great as a strike fighter, gun pods would bring and easier option for ground attack than the bombs. It seems in the MP side of things there aren't too many FW-190 pilots showing up anymore and this makes winning in the scenario driven servers near impossible with 109s alone. Giving 109 pilots more options may help Red win some scenarios or at least encourage them to do a few strike sorties rather than flying around simply to get into a 1v1.

-SLACK

AFAIK, gunpods even though coming out of the factory were often left behind in bases in late -44 and -45 because of the new prevelence of long range fighter escorts such as a the P-51D Mustang and that was a decision made on the highest level in the Luftwaffe after disasterous results against Mustangs during -44. Field modifications did happen of course but i am not sure how prelevant they were, there is often many conflicting sources about that.

In any case, both the german WW2 planes in DCS do need their 2 cm gunpods for the ground attack role something the 109's rarely did during the K-4 service life due to the simple fact of life that the 109's that weren't blown up were needed against Lancasters and Flying Fortresses and their Mustang escorts.

From historical point of view, nothing wrong to add gunpods but most likey they saw limited action.

Not sure they add the ability throug the whole K4 production to add gunpods, most not nessecary eupiments are skip in late 44-45.

Even in this days the luftwaffe had hard time to get even airborne.

My Grandfather tell me he is only flying one sorty in 1943 with gunpods and it was not worth it.

Thanks for posting the photo.

That worhead is no joke but it's funny how big it is compared to the man and considering it would be flown by a small fighter like a 109.

Stand beside a 109 and 'small' gets relative very quickly. ;) From the human perspective, its a huge machine.

From historical point of view, nothing wrong to add gunpods but most likey they saw limited action.

Not sure they add the ability throug the whole K4 production to add gunpods, most not nessecary eupiments are skip in late 44-45.

Even in this days the luftwaffe had hard time to get even airborne.

My Grandfather tell me he is only flying one sorty in 1943 with gunpods and it was not worth it.

So he flew a sortie with gunpods on the 109 K-4? So it is realistic! :D

I'd like to try if I can make it worth it, against ground target or bombers...

So he flew a sortie with gunpods on the 109 K-4? So it is realistic! :D

 

I'd like to try if I can make it worth it, against ground target or bombers...

How many operational Bf109K-4s around in 1943?;)

How many operational Bf109K-4s around in 1943?;)

I'll settle for one... I can't fly more than one at a time anyway. ;)

It is about options, and if they are realistic the better.

If in a historical context it did not happen or does not make sense, it is up to the mission designer to make a accurate mission through restrictions.

Speaking of realism, how many Bf. 109 K-4 fought P-51Ds over the Caucasus or Nevada since 2011?

...but Normandy map may change that. :)

Speaking of realism, how many Bf. 109 K-4 fought P-51Ds over the Caucasus or Nevada since 2011?

...but Normandy map may change that. :)

Well some some map is required for now. If no Caucasus or Nevada where would air combat take place?

As are weapons, and I like to have the same choices, the pilots had. Even the more experimental ones.

But I guess we see these weapons in due time.

Gun Pods and an External fuel tank are overdue.

Hope we don't overshoot the target with experimental Weapons :D

How many operational Bf109K-4s around in 1943?;)

Maybe hes Grandfather was a Bf-109G-2/G-6 or even Bf-109F-x pilot in 1943. Heavy drag and manoeuvrability loss when carrying gunpods was a common issue for all the 109 variants, as far as i know, and the same statement was made by many Luftwaffe pilots for MG-151/20 vs Mk-108.

I've a book about the Bf-109 (actually i have plenty of them... But i'm interrested in this one particulary regarding this topic), the title is in french : ''Les Chasseurs Allemands Tome 1 : Le Messerschmitt Bf-109''

In English : ''German Fighters Volume 1 : Messerschmitt Bf-109''. Written by Dominique BREFFORT and with André JOUINEAU's profiles.

At the ''K for Karl'' section of this book i can read this (by the way, the true denomination was Karl or Kurfürst ? ^^) :

''The K-6, in addition to the standard armament, was equiped with two Mk-108 mounted on the wings''. No gun pods mentioned for the K-4.

Also, in the Armament section of the K-4 model, i can read this :

''Two MG-131/13 machineguns with 300 rounds each and one MG-151/20 with 65 rounds (or one Mk-108 30mm canon) ''

So, according to this source, Mg-151/20 centerline canon on the K-4 is plausible

(...)

Also, in the Armament section of the K-4 model, i can read this :

 

''Two MG-131/13 machineguns with 300 rounds each and one MG-151/20 with 65 rounds (or one Mk-108 30mm canon) ''

 

So, according to this source, Mg-151/20 centerline canon on the K-4 is plausible

It seems there were plans for a MG-151/20, but due to limitations and necessary changes to engine compartment it was never implemented.

The underwing pods, were at least issued to one JG, but they were not popular with the pilots, as they reduced maneuverability and speed, making them sitting ducks for the later war P-51D escorts.

Kurfurst was in III Reich, Karl is from 1905.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchstabiertafel

One thing doesnt seem right. MG151/20 in every 109 had 200 rounds, only the MK-108 had 65. And as it was pointed out earlier, only one K4 with MG151 was ever noted.

Kurfurst was in III Reich, Karl is from 1905.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchstabiertafel

 

One thing doesnt seem right. MG151/20 in every 109 had 200 rounds, only the MK-108 had 65. And as it was pointed out earlier, only one K4 with MG151 was ever noted.

So if i refer to your link, F stands for Fritz, and not Freidrich in the IIIrd Reich x).. Anyway, Kurfürst sounds way better to me than Karl 8)

Yeah i've noticed, 65 rounds for a 20mm is not a lot ! And all other variant of the 109 which have the axial MG-151/20 have 200 rounds if I remember corectly

Underwing pods must be useful against the ''viermots'', but Bf-109 or Fw-190 which take those pods must need a real fighter escort too.. Specially against late war P-51, Spitfires/Tempest and P-47. So, a lot of means was necessary to have an efficient use of Bf-109 with underwing gun pods. But it seems that the late war Reich havn't all those means

So if i refer to your link, F stands for Fritz, and not Freidrich in the IIIrd Reich x).. Anyway, Kurfürst sounds way better to me than Karl 8)

 

 

Yeah i've noticed, 65 rounds for a 20mm is not a lot ! And all other variant of the 109 which have the axial MG-151/20 have 200 rounds if I remember corectly

 

Underwing pods must be useful against the ''viermots'', but Bf-109 or Fw-190 which take those pods must need a real fighter escort too.. Specially against late war P-51, Spitfires/Tempest and P-47. So, a lot of means was necessary to have an efficient use of Bf-109 with underwing gun pods. But it seems that the late war Reich havn't all those means

First of all, stop beeing rude. You asked a question, I came out with an aswer.

Secondly read what other reply, I just wrote that the MG151/20 Motorkanone has 200 rounds.

Thirdly, have you ever thought that the Friedrich might not be the original name of the airplane, but just as Karl a name changed afterwards? Some sources refer to it as Friedrich, some as Fritz and some as both, Friedrich/Fritz. Not to mention other names given after the war to vehicles of WW2 such as M10 "Wolverine" or Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer"

First of all, stop beeing rude. You asked a question, I came out with an aswer.

 

Secondly read what other reply, I just wrote that the MG151/20 Motorkanone has 200 rounds.

 

Thirdly, have you ever thought that the Friedrich might not be the original name of the airplane, but just as Karl a name changed afterwards? Some sources refer to it as Friedrich, some as Fritz and some as both, Friedrich/Fritz. Not to mention other names given after the war to vehicles of WW2 such as M10 "Wolverine" or Jagdpanzer 38t "Hetzer"

WOW ! hey guy ! I never wanted to be rude and i never been ! Just wow this reaction is just incredible ! You understand my word like if they were aggressive but it's absolutely not the case ! I don't know what to answer to you.

Let's clarify the situation, you came with an answer, and a good answer to me, i havn't notify it in my previous post so : Thank you for your answer. BUT in your answer you give me an other question about Freidrich/Fritz ! But finaly it's not that important to the topic that's why i don't wanted to go further more on this ''F'' signification.

I have read your previous posts and confirmed it by my own very little knowledge. Only 65 rounds of 20 mm is really poor, I've noticed that, JUST LIKE YOU !

And finaly, i've read this book in the F/G variant and I was wrong. 200 rounds was not the standard dotation for the axial MG-151/20 for every 109 variants. Some variant only have 150 rounds of those 20mm cartridges. But it's what this book says, I don't think it is the truth, but it's still a source of documentation.

It's incredible how people can find aggressiveness where there is ABSOLUTELY NO HOSTILITY ! It's very disturbing. But let's close this altercation. I take it on my own. Sorry Solty, i never wanted to be rude, in anyway.

Let's focus back on the topic :pilotfly:

WOW ! hey guy ! I never wanted to be rude and i never been ! Just wow this reaction is just incredible ! You understand my word like if they were aggressive but it's absolutely not the case ! I don't know what to answer to you.

 

Let's clarify the situation, you came with an answer, and a good answer to me, i havn't notify it in my previous post so : Thank you for your answer. BUT in your answer you give me an other question about Freidrich/Fritz ! But finaly it's not that important to the topic that's why i don't wanted to go further more on this ''F'' signification.

I have read your previous posts and confirmed it by my own very little knowledge. Only 65 rounds of 20 mm is really poor, I've noticed that, JUST LIKE YOU !

 

And finaly, i've read this book in the F/G variant and I was wrong. 200 rounds was not the standard dotation for the axial MG-151/20 for every 109 variants. Some variant only have 150 rounds of those 20mm cartridges. But it's what this book says, I don't think it is the truth, but it's still a source of documentation.

 

 

It's incredible how people can find aggressiveness where there is ABSOLUTELY NO HOSTILITY ! It's very disturbing. But let's close this altercation. I take it on my own. Sorry Solty, i never wanted to be rude, in anyway.

 

Let's focus back on the topic :pilotfly:

Unfortunately communication in writing alone is often difficult to grasp, as all the subtle notes and body language is lost.

It happens.

There is a lot, sometimes contradicting, information out there, that is why we see a lot of heated discussion. :)

Unfortunately communication in writing alone is often difficult to grasp, as all the subtle notes and body language is lost.

It happens.

 

There is a lot, sometimes contradicting, information out there, that is why we see a lot of heated discussion. :)

Yes, i understand this. If i'm not clear please tell me, i'm not english and i don't use translator.

I see those contradictions between some sources, it's particulary the case with german late war fighter.

And i'm not in an hostile perspective, i'm always open to somebody else opinion/sources.