So, tell me please....

 

Having read many pilot comments on the 109 myself, I find that the aircraft functions like I would expect for the most part, sure, there are moments you have something happen in the sim that probably wouldnt happen in real life, but most of the time I am doing something in the sim I wouldnt be doing in real life to cause that.

 

Honestly, and Yo-Yo can correct me, but I think the FM is pretty close to final as it is.

I'm very happy with what we have. And, regarding the use at higher G loads, now with the modified control forces and the blackouts, we are forced to stay closer to the real operation margins...

One thing I like particularly is the energy bleed when using way too much climbing maneuvers, as well as the effects of a hotter engine.... This imposes realistic limits in the simulation, and, IMO, helps to bring the virtual combats closer to what real life dogfights and other types were.

The rudder and elevator stiffness with "q" is now, I would say - JUST PERFECT!

I must be missing all this "proof" in this thread, just more white noise (not even a track supplied of this supposed incorrect behaviour). Pilot quotes are great, even used by Yo-Yo as has been seen, but us comparing our experience to a real WWII fighter pilot is pretty tough, the simulation tries its best but in the end, I think the input/feedback you get from true flight is what some people cant wrap their heads around and where many of the differences come from. Not to mention our control systems...

 

Having read many pilot comments on the 109 myself, I find that the aircraft functions like I would expect for the most part, sure, there are moments you have something happen in the sim that probably wouldnt happen in real life, but most of the time I am doing something in the sim I wouldnt be doing in real life to cause that.

 

Honestly, and Yo-Yo can correct me, but I think the FM is pretty close to final as it is.

What the some players want out of him is literally impossible. Not only is he charged with being a forensic investigator, resurrecting FM's, and behaviors out of sketchy information from the beginnings of our technical understanding, but he is doing it with so much less computing power than many single aircraft simulators have available.

In spite of the obstacles, he is doing very well and delivering a plausible product. The cockpit immersion is fantastic, the stability and control modeling much better than anything in the past, and the aircraft perform well. Yo-Yo's work provides the suspension of belief required to attract many RL pilots.

For what we pay on a home computer....that is a bargain.

Here one of the sims at work to give the players an idea.

Here is the computer room. It houses three mainframes that provide the computing power for the one aircraft simulator. The amount of computing power dedicated to just one aircraft and it is STILL NOT RIGHT is staggering.

:smilewink:

For example, If you make a greaser or even try to do it in the sim, the training department will not be happy. The simulator lands nothing like the actual aircraft and they do not want you building bad muscle memory that could potentially damage the actual aircraft.

You just plant the sim, do not red screen it and everyone is happy. :P

All that computer power still cannot replicate many of the flight behaviors of the actual aircraft. :huh:

What the some players want out of him is literally impossible. Not only is he charged with being a forensic investigator, resurrecting FM's, and behaviors out of sketchy information from the beginnings of our technical understanding, but he is doing it with so much less computing power than many single aircraft simulators have available.

 

In spite of the obstacles, he is doing very well and delivering a plausible product. The cockpit immersion is fantastic, the stability and control modeling much better than anything in the past, and the aircraft perform well. Yo-Yo's work provides the suspension of belief required to attract many RL pilots.

 

For what we pay on a home computer....that is a bargain.

Thanks for those words.

Agree completely, even being a simple home sim player. ;)

DCS gives the right feeling of being in an aircraft drifting through the air, better than other PC simulators I tried.

If I had the economy for it, a real aircraft would be the next endeavour, but maybe some day in the future. :)

Pretty irritating to be accused of only supplying white noise when you try your best to describe a percieved FM issue. How about we stop the forum PvP and instead focus on the problem?

Anyway where can I find my tracks? I will provide one to show the behavior.

In the meantime here's Skip Holm (probably the most experienced pilot in the US) describing the 109's flight characteristics:

"Pitch control is also delightful and very positive at 250 mph and below. As pitch and accompanying G is increased, the leading edge slats start to deploy. I have not found either aircraft to have any problems with asymmetrical slat deployment, as we see in other aircraft such as an A-4 for instance. The aircraft reacts very well to heavy maneuvering, and there is never any discomfort in pulling Gs, as wing separation and accompanying wing drop is mild, is easily noticed and dealt with by lightening up on the G. Pitch force tends to get heavy at speeds above 300 mph, but is still easily managed with a little 2-hand pull or left hand re-trimming."

Anyway where can I find my tracks? I will provide one to show the behavior.

After you fly and experience the behaviors, there will be an option to save the track. Then just look at the properties of the file in your video tab to find the folder.

I gotta hunt for it every time I do it!

Nobody is saying you are not experiencing an issue. Just understand that others are not experiencing the same thing.

:thumbup:

Pretty irritating to be accused of only supplying white noise when you try your best to describe a percieved FM issue. How about we stop the forum PvP and instead focus on the problem?

BTW nice sim Crumpp, I'll look for something like that at home :lol:.

S!

Pretty irritating to be accused of only supplying white noise when you try your best to describe a percieved FM issue. How about we stop the forum PvP and instead focus on the problem?

No need to get emotional. All we requested is a track since we can't replicate what you are saying. It is in everyones best interest to find the problem, if there is one. Pilot quotes won't solve a thing. Showing what exactly you perceive as wrong is best done via a track recording, or if you have time, a video.

In the meantime here's Skip Holm (probably the most experienced pilot in the US) describing the 109's flight characteristics:

Besides, last I checked, Yo-Yo / ED is in contact with Klaus Plasa, a pilot who flies G-4 Red 7. Therefore, modern pilot input is also taken into equation.

The effect / behavior described by Hummingbird is real and happened to me last night when trying the K4 in 1.5.

The K4 entered an interminable succession of wings rocking as it came down to the ground, and I simply couldn't recover.

I was stupid not to record the track for replay. What came to my mind in te very first place was that it might have been caused by alternate / successive / asymmetric slat deplyoment.

I will certainly try to reproduce it and post here the results.

First of all let me say that I admire and respect Yo-Yo's work, even if I don't agree with all of his assessments and interpretations as well as finding him abit stubborn at times :P Hence that's also why I say I have faith that he will get it right eventually. He already did a stellar job, there's no denying that.

Btw I've talked to Red 7's chief mechanic this summer at the Roskilde Airshow, and despite a small language barrier from what I could gather he told me that Plaza doesn't really take the aircraft to the limits in the same way as Skip Holm. Part of the reason is the lack of parts for the aircraft if anything is damaged, as well as a VERY strict budget (esp. after the crash a couple years back) and as a result displays are run at very low power, and the aircraft is never pushed close to the stall.

Anyway I'll try to make a track for you guys so you can see the behavior I'm talking about. It's basically an odd rocking of the wings followed by a series of mini departures at constant speed & stick deflection (i.e. not speed change related), running full power at 1.8 ata.

Like the others have said, Hummingbird....we all just want to get to the bottom of it and get it fixed!

We are all in this together. :thumbup:

BTW nice sim Crumpp, I'll look for something like that at home

Those sims cost almost as much as the actual airplane, require an army of mechanics, and cost almost as much per hour to operate!

The only advantage is you can fail all the systems...then reset!

We call them the "shake and bake boxes".

If you knew Russian I would recommend you to read the NII VVS report on stability and controllability of Bf-109G. Wing rocking or lateral stability loss was described as a distinctive behaviour.

I don't doubt it, esp. considering the shape of that particular aircraft. The slats might very well have been malfunctioning, either due to wear, damage or improper maintenance.

I think we need to be careful not to rely on the findings from one place only, and we need to take into consideration all of them, esp. as this rocking of the wings is not described in western sources.

Like the others have said, Hummingbird....we all just want to get to the bottom of it and get it fixed!

 

We are all in this together. :thumbup:

Roger, I'll be taking the bird for a flight tommorrow and record a track :)

This evening I've been busy enjoying the F-86F, which is truly great I must say.

You mix things again.

 

To maintain 1g flight with the increasing airspeed the stable plane requires stick forward movement.

Hmmmm, I did not contradict that statement. Without more detail about how you believe my observations are incorrect it is difficult for me to proceed.

At least it is agreed that the 109 has some stability issues in DCS, and they could be correct for all I know. In the past it seemed like any observed instability was supposedly user error.

This 109K-4 has some tricky characteristics that might go unnoticed at first glance.:doh:

The lateral instability was present in the Bf-109E too.

Otto,

The graphs for longitudinal stability were stick fixed at the zero trim setting. You can see, trimmed flight at low speeds requires down elevator.

Guess what will happen to the nose if you release the stick at zero trim?

Roger, I'll be taking the bird for a flight tommorrow and record a track

Sounds good.

Its funny, after having this discussion about behaviour near stall, and me having tested it as well as I could: After the discussion I was inspired to look at my controllers.

Two things I found was:

1. My pedals do spike a bit, but it seems to be mostly filtered out by DCS.

2. More important: I suddenly found that my joystick was not centered.

It was not by much, but it meant that I was constantly pulling and pushing to an axis to the right of the center.

I calibrated the stick and took another test flight: Now it was much easier to maintain a tight turn close to the stall, even at full power.

For me it just goes to show how little it takes to get a vastly different picture of the aircraft's behaviour in the sim.

Our controllers are a big part of it.

Btw I've talked to Red 7's chief mechanic this summer at the Roskilde Airshow, and despite a small language barrier from what I could gather he told me that Plaza doesn't really take the aircraft to the limits in the same way as Skip Holm. Part of the reason is the lack of parts for the aircraft if anything is damaged, as well as a VERY strict budget (esp. after the crash a couple years back) and as a result displays are run at very low power, and the aircraft is never pushed close to the stall.

Since you spoke with the mechanic. Was he (or other pilots) taking it to the limits before the crash? Crash video shows a very tight turn before belly landing into the field:

Anyway I'll try to make a track for you guys so you can see the behavior I'm talking about. It's basically an odd rocking of the wings followed by a series of mini departures at constant speed & stick deflection (i.e. not speed change related), running full power at 1.8 ata.

You mention constant speed and stick deflection. The way stick stiffening is simulated in this sim, the following will happen: hold the joystick at a fixed / constant deflection and in game stick forces will prevent you from pulling it all the way back. Essentially the virtual stick will stop at one location until the speed bleeds. Then, as a result of lower stick forces, the virtual stick will continue to move further back to match your joystick position - forcing you to exceed critical AOA and enter a stall.

But, since you say constant speed, the above shouldn't happen. Do enable control indicator with CTRL + ENTER when recording please.

Its funny, after having this discussion about behaviour near stall, and me having tested it as well as I could: After the discussion I was inspired to look at my controllers.

 

Two things I found was:

1. My pedals do spike a bit, but it seems to be mostly filtered out by DCS.

 

2. More important: I suddenly found that my joystick was not centered.

It was not by much, but it meant that I was constantly pulling and pushing to an axis to the right of the center.

 

I calibrated the stick and took another test flight: Now it was much easier to maintain a tight turn close to the stall, even at full power.

 

For me it just goes to show how little it takes to get a vastly different picture of the aircraft's behaviour in the sim.

Our controllers are a big part of it.

You mention constant speed and stick deflection. The way stick stiffening is simulated in this sim, the following will happen: hold the joystick at a fixed / constant deflection and in game stick forces will prevent you from pulling it all the way back. Essentially the virtual stick will stop at one location until the speed bleeds. Then, as a result of lower stick forces, the virtual stick will continue to move further back to match your joystick position - forcing you to exceed critical AOA and enter a stall.

 

But, since you say constant speed, the above shouldn't happen. Do enable control indicator with CTRL + ENTER when recording please.

S!

Nice find BTW, and thanks for sharing :thumbup:. May be it does help people out there who still don't think their controls matters.

Thank you, and you're welcome.

One thing I am thinking also is that even if the pedals seems filtered, I have no way of knowing if it interferes with my flying as well: Small fluctuations in rudder position could also contribute to the slight instability I still feel.

I do know already that when I went from my old x52 setup to the Warthog my flying transformed due to the increased precision.

Probably I would get some of the same if I could change to a better quality pedals.

It realy might be due to stifness, or it could be that the mild stalling characteristic may refer to the power-off stall and not the accelerated stall?:book::huh:

The lateral instability was present in the Bf-109E too.

 

 

Otto,

 

The graphs for longitudinal stability were stick fixed at the zero trim setting. You can see, trimmed flight at low speeds requires down elevator.

 

Guess what will happen to the nose if you release the stick at zero trim?

The Emil had issues with its slats, but the design was changed with the succeeding models to which the K model belongs.

After that no snatching is mentioned, and I can't find anything on lateral instability either.

Also it needs to mentioned that the above was straight and level stalls to determine the stall speed. But again the Emil had known issues with the slats, amongst these that one of the slats would sometimes jam, resulting in the aircraft going into a spin. This was esp. bad in N. Africa due to fine sand fouling up the mechanism.