K-4 is a P51 Killer

If you guys expecting the devs to BALANCE these planes you should maybe find a game that does do just that. This is a sim through and through, there will be no balancing here. At least I hope thats the case.

Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives.

If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage.

Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance.

Yes we have an early '44 P-51

That would be the P-51B..

Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives.

 

If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage.

 

Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance.

Im not sure you got my point. This sim is not about balancing. Some fighters were better than others. Period. Fullstop. Some were better at altitude, some down low. Others in a climb. etc. etc. etc.

One of the joys of simming in this environment is precisely the fact that there will be no concessions for the sake of "competitiveness". If you want to compete go fly Warthunder, or World of Warplanes.

That would be the P-51B..

B is from 1943

Yes we have an early '44 P-51 vs late '44 Doras and K-4s so definitely no balance. The performance difference will be even greater when the Spit IX arrives.

 

If and when the P-51 gets 150 octane fuel the P-51 should be more competitive. If the Spitfire IX gets 25lb boost it to will be more competitive but still be at a disadvantage.

 

Only with Spit XIV will there be any sort of balance.

In al my 1.5 years of ww2 sim flying i have never been shot down by a spit 14 and if i did my kill death ratio vs it must be about 20 to 1.

Most spit pilots will choose mk9 because it turns tighter. For me it's harder to kill an mk 9.I can't count how many times i've been shot down by one.

And all this talk about octanes and what not. All allied fighters will be way slower than the historically 1944 present me 262 anyway.

I would have wanted a fw a5,6,7,8 and a g14 , 6 but the decision was not mine.

B is from 1943

And the D we have is from past June 1944, so definitely not an "early vs late" plane setup, the D-9, K-4 and P-51D all saw combat in the 2nd half of 1944. There is about 2 months between the operational introduction of the P-51D and D-9 and maybe three with the K-4.

They are also fairly close performance wise.

Sorry but first you have to get your facts right.

 

1. K4 and P51 have pretty damn close max speed, K4 with MW50 is claimed 715km/h, without MW ~670km/h. P-51 top speed is around 710km/h.

 

2. K4 does not have 2200hp engine but 1800hp with MW 50. Without MW around 1500hp.

 

3. K4 in DCS does not have flettner tabs. It has same ailerons as G models because majority of K4's had them IRL. It does not turn faster than "regular" G6. And you must understand that, while 109s tend to get stiff on faster speeds it was still fully manouverable, you just had to use more power to turn etc. Being stiff or hard does not mean unmanouverable. It's only after 750km/h or so when it starts to get really stiff and you have to use trim to pull of ouf dive for example.

 

4. Once K4 run out of MW 50 or are forced to take break of using it, it's not that much different to say G14 performance wise for example. Without MW50, p-51 will be faster.

 

If Mustang pilot however starts to turn with 109 under 500km/h or try to climb away and there is skilled pilot in 109, then he is screwed. Just like in real life...

I like ur knowledge.

1. It is faster though. So 51 cant run

2. So its not c3 fuel.hmm

3 I could have sworn it does. Going below 500kph doesn't mean that 51 is not able to follow the 109. Only at 360 and below the 109 should have clear advantage.

4. Tell me how long can u fly with MW50.

That would be the P-51B..

The first P-51Ds arrived in the ETO in March 1944.

Dora - Sept '44 so 6 months after P-51Ds

K-4 - Oct '44 so 7 months after P-51Ds

Here's a quick recap for P-51D15's and the Bf 109K-4's speed and climb rates with the boost we have for them in DCS (67" Hg and 1.8 ata)

The climb chart explains quickly why the P-51D gets raped by the K-4 in climbs, turns and most energy maneuvers.. it is clear that its entirely wrong to even attempt to beat the K-4 pilot in these.

The 51D was probably the best test results (others are slower) from 15 June 1945, Ohio, P-51D Airplane, AAF No. 44-15342. The aircraft had standard wing racks and 67" boost. K-4 figures are from manufacturer for multiple propeller types, the one we have in DCS (VDM 12159) is marked with red.

And the D we have is from past June 1944, so definitely not an "early vs late" plane setup, the D-9, K-4 and P-51D all saw combat in the 2nd half of 1944. There is about 2 months between the operational introduction of the P-51D and D-9 and maybe three with the K-4.

 

They are also fairly close performance wise.

True. Still most 109s were G6 and G14. K4 was certainly not ordinary. K4 is a leap in development of 109 while 51D is just worse aerodynamic for better visibility. The fact that what we have in DCS doesn't have 150 octane fuel is not helping

If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it.

C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates

If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it.

 

C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates

Wow. This again? This is applicable to Real life, not in a sim.

Try it. Take P51 and beat a 109E3, then try to beat 109K4.

Or better. Go fight guns only against MiG29 in your Bf. Skill within sim community is quite high. It is mostly fight till somebody makes a mistake. In 109k4 you can make more mistakes and win.

If all we were focused in flying rather than in saying that X plane is better than Y we already have catch the idea, the plane is worse as good as the pilot in it.

 

C,mon, you can still win a fight with an inferior plane if you know how to fight on it, and if the two pilots are good, the pilot of the worst plane will survive escaping to fight later, catching him by surprise or by help of his teammates

That's entirely true of course, however apart from good piloting, which is a must, you must also understand the performance envelope of both planes and to base tactics on that... yes against worser pilots that can even be skipped, but nobody can assume meeting inferior pilots all the time.

Tell me this sim won't devolve into a clusterf*#! of Spit XIVs and 109K-4s furballing near the ground, please!

:badmood:

 

In my opinion, wishing for a bigger gun is not a helpful outlook. First, reassess your tactics. Incessant defensive circles are not the way to victory with the P-51D and never were until the 190D-9 was its only opponent.

 

This 109K-4 does not have special performance compared to past flight sims (if anything it is more tricky to fly), and right now P-51 pilots can easily escape with a dive and a high g turn... which means, as usual, altitude is life.:thumbup:

For what its worth we will be developing the Spitfire XIV to be historically accurate (as much as possible) using real world data gathered from airworthy aircraft and current pilots. Historical data although good is often not reliable as it is often a biased view and/or a matter of relativity.

We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;)

If it means that FW190's rule everything then there is nothing we can do about that, we cant "buff" or "nerf" our aircraft to make it more acceptable to peoples expectations about how they should or should not perform

That said I had my first A2A in a Bf109K4 vs P-51D and I quite enjoyed myself and scored some good hits on a P-51 (players, not AI), 2 damaged scores for my tab but no kills yet :)

Pman

Wow. This again? This is applicable to Real life, not in a sim.

 

Try it. Take P51 and beat a 109E3, then try to beat 109K4.

 

Or better. Go fight guns only against MiG29 in your Bf. Skill within sim community is quite high. It is mostly fight till somebody makes a mistake. In 109k4 you can make more mistakes and win.

Ok, lets start

1. I did not say I am flying a 109, actually I own the 3 Ww2 birds , and I like the mustang more

2. Lets be clever, I am not saying GUNS only against a Mig29, I am saying against of Ww2 we have, there is not so Big advantages for some against others, lets say the advantages make them better a 10% in the best case.

3. You will be always shot down if you do not know how to fight, this is not only in DCS, this is worldwide, this does not mean that if you are a bad pilot, and enter in a 109 you will be an Insta-ace because the plane is better, of course, you will be shot down.

4. The fight of the mistake is really true, but mistakes are mistakes, and the best can always make mistakes, it is more common for the newbies? yes, but everybody can make mistakes, this make sense in the plane you are, like you said, but the plane forgiving your mistakes is not going to give you kills, instead is going to give you less efficiency,

You are not going to be an Ace sitting in the 109 fighting against p51, you are going to be an Ace if you play for at least 300 hours on the plane, you will learn how to not make mistakes.

For what its worth we will be developing the Spitfire XIV to be historically accurate (as much as possible) using real world data gathered from airworthy aircraft and current pilots. Historical data although good is often not reliable as it is often a biased view and/or a matter of relativity.

 

We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;)

 

If it means that FW190's rule everything then there is nothing we can do about that, we cant "buff" or "nerf" our aircraft to make it more acceptable to peoples expectations about how they should or should not perform

 

That said I had my first A2A in a Bf109K4 vs P-51D and I quite enjoyed myself and scored some good hits on a P-51 (players, not AI), 2 damaged scores for my tab but no kills yet :)

 

Pman

Thank you for the voice of reason.

Ok, lets start

 

1. I did not say I am flying a 109, actually I own the 3 Ww2 birds , and I like the mustang more

 

2. Lets be clever, I am not saying GUNS only against a Mig29, I am saying against of Ww2 we have, there is not so Big advantages for some against others, lets say the advantages make them better a 10% in the best case.

 

3. You will be always shot down if you do not know how to fight, this is not only in DCS, this is worldwide, this does not mean that if you are a bad pilot, and enter in a 109 you will be an Insta-ace because the plane is better, of course, you will be shot down.

 

4. The fight of the mistake is really true, but mistakes are mistakes, and the best can always make mistakes, it is more common for the newbies? yes, but everybody can make mistakes, this make sense in the plane you are, like you said, but the plane forgiving your mistakes is not going to give you kills, instead is going to give you less efficiency,

 

You are not going to be an Ace sitting in the 109 fighting against p51, you are going to be an Ace if you play for at least 300 hours on the plane, you will learn how to not make mistakes.

1. Cant comment on preferances.

2. 10% would be between 109 and spit.

In a fight against 51 the109 has all advantages.

K4 is

Faster or at least as fast

As maneuverable

Has better turn

Better climb

Better acceleration

Better stall speed

So P51 can't run. Can't turn. Can't climb. And in a dive sooner or later k4 will catch him.

Only roll at High speed is better for 51.

Scissors are the only way... And not a good way.

We do not "balance" our aircraft, we will make them in line with all of the data we have at our disposal, if that means that Spitfire XIV's and Bf109's rule the roost then so be it ;)

 

 

Pman

This is DCS (using spartan Leonidas voice :D), this is the normal and corect approach and please keep that way.

If I will want to go fight in a Mustang against a Kurfurst, I will make sure I will have a wingmen with me. Otherwise, adapt, adapt adapt.. run, snap... etc :D. Anyway, I am enjoying all of them!

What caused most Allied victories?

That's right! TEAMWORK!

Stop moaning about balance and get a wingman.

Pretty sure RL P51D didn't go against K4 with 67"hg limit, it's at least 75"hg. Having the P51D in game limited at 67"hg is neither historical nor balanced.

It would be interesting to see the D9 and K4 users reaction if the MW50's taken away from the planes, would their reaction still be your standard "l2p noob"? Well, seeing as your virtual luftwaffe aces alway be the first to whine about supposedly "unhistorical thing" about their planes I seriously doubt it.

Pretty sure RL P51D didn't go against K4 with 67"hg limit, it's at least 75"hg. Having the P51D in game limited at 67"hg is neither historical nor balanced.

 

It would be interesting to see the D9 and K4 users reaction if the MW50's taken away from the planes, would their reaction still be your standard "l2p noob"? Well, seeing as your virtual luftwaffe aces alway be the first to whine about supposedly "unhistorical thing" about their planes I seriously doubt it.

Im a P51 pilot. I dont have a problem with the K4 being the way it is. How's that?

 

4. Tell me how long can u fly with MW50.

4 x 10 minutes, IIRC at least 5 min. pause between every time.

72" Mustang vs D9 / K4 using B4/MW50 would probably have been the most common match up. Hopefully the Mustang will get a bit of a boost to reflect what would have been a more common engagement.

Im a P51 pilot. I dont have a problem with the K4 being the way it is. How's that?

It's your personal opinion, more power to you. You can always limit yourself at 67"hg if the P51D get remodeled, just don't force it on others.

What caused most Allied victories?

 

That's right! TEAMWORK!

 

Stop moaning about balance and get a wingman.

I came here to say THIS.