Black Shark 3?

Just messing with you Bulba ;)...

Obviously they don't work if you just duct tape them to the end of the wings :).

I have cited information from a 2016 source written in direct cooperation with the JSC Kamov.

 

 

Or maybe, in reality, forum users are not at all far from the truth when they say the following:

 

:)

 

Original in Russian

 

Я привёл информацию из источника 2016 года, написанного при непосредственном сотрудничестве с ОАО «Камов».

 

 

Или может в действительности пользователи форума вовсе не далеки от истины, когда говорят следующее:

 

:)

Lol you quote weta. You realize he's the one attempting to break the myths here... luckily he has taken the lead on this one wo other such as myself arent as burdened, with having to take up the task.

Dude just give it up....

There is no point trying to grasp at straws trying to believe otherwise

Even a dev from ED admitted it's not a real feature. What more do you need? They have thier own reasons for going ahead and adding it, but that's a different matter. Sources like Jane's have been wrong before.

But as weta said people will believe what they want and facts fallen on deaf ears.

Google Translate

Lol you quote weta. You realize he's the one attempting to break the myths here…

Either I do not express my thoughts well, or my Google Translate is not very good. The whole point of my posts is precisely to destroy these myths. And I quote Weta43 because I agree with him. :smilewink:

Some of you fail to understand what the people like me are saying.

We DON'T CARE whether it was ever fielded or not. :lol:

If DCS wants to sell us a new copter, they have our demands.

So far, I believe it is Igla's, FLIR, RWR, and some want full blown glass cockpit.

We want what the modern Ka-52 should have been. Pretty much a single seat version of the Ka-52 used to carry out attack and defense commands issued by the Ka-52, with the 52 being the Group Leader / Command Post.

I don't think many care about President-S.

We are looking for Night Mission and anti-Fighter defense capability.

they have our demands. (!)

So far it is Igla's, FLIR, RWR, and (...) full blown glass cockpit.

And a peresvet ?

Either I do not express my thoughts well, or my Google Translate is not very good. The whole point of my posts is precisely to destroy these myths. And I quote Weta43 because I agree with him. :smilewink:

 

Original in Russian

 

Либо я плохо выражаю свои мысли, либо мой Google Translate не очень хорош. Весь смысл моих постов как раз и состоит в том, чтобы разрушить эти мифы. И цитирую я Weta43 потому, что согласен с ним. :smilewink:

AS do I. Seems we both had a misunderstanding.

What's the point arguing? No one at ED ever reads, much less responds to this here anyway. I wish they'd just give us the roadmap and swipe all this nonsense here off the table.

They'll either implement unicorns and laser canons or they don't. I wouldn't mind some 'fantasy' features like RWR or FLIR. Even if both had never been (together or at all) on any helicopter.

The KA-50 has died and is replaced by Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-52. Had it been further developped, they would've put those features in if they had the money. They didn't have the money and so we're stuck with a half developed helicopter that was good enough in a war where such equipment wasn't needed. And now it's obsolete, and we're stuck with a cold war era helicopter while the rest of the aircraft and air defenses have moved on.

I disagree with the notion that a simulation is not a simulation if it was never made. A simulation is a simulation because it behaves like reality, not because it is or had been real. Aircraft designers use simulations all the time without building the real thing every time they make a change to the airframe. So if ED decides that a 6 pylon ka-50 is simulated then it's a simulation, if not a reflection of an aircraft that was ever produced. Aside from that non of the modules are ever 100% correct. All the FC3 aircraft are gamey, The real aircraft are flying supercomputers with tens of millions of lines of code, every one of them confidential and top secret. The difference between the F15 ECM and a ka-50 with 6 pylons is that we don't know how the ecm works exactly but are confident that how it is modeled in the game is wrong, while we do know for a fact that 6 pylons is just plain wrong. What's the difference between wrong and wrong? Should we not use the F15? Well the only way to go then is to join the air force and fly the real thing.

I don't want 6 pylons, but I don't mind if they mix and match the tech they stuck into different ka-50 to make a capable, modern aircraft. At the same time I wouldn't be mad if they did make 6 pylons a thing. It's a natural step for the helicopter to take, the technology is possible, as shown by the ka-52, which is not a completely different aircraft, but was developed from the ka-50 - indeed the ka-50 is not a prototype for the ka-52. but it was a predecessor and the 52 is a direct continuation of the development.

If the weight and aerodynamics are simulated correctly, the modifications physically possible, then it is still a simulation. If you only want the real stuff, then fly the WW2 planes, because that's the only thing that's declassified and could even hope to be modeled accurately in avionics and flight model.

All that said, there is literally no point in having any of this discussion, ED doesn't care, ED doesn't talk, ED doesn't give us any plans they have for the Ka-50, no roadmap, no pricing, no list of features, not even a list of ideas they might have for features. All they say is "new model, fix for lighting, igla, president s". And that's been weeks ago and no word of them ever since, and this topic has gone ballistic with no reaction on their part.

Not a single post.

Everyone is speculating, everyone is giving their wishful thinking, their opinions on what a combat simulator should be? A realistic representation of reality, with no hopes of ever achieving that? Yes, perhaps that is right.

Could a KA-50 be built or modified to fire iglas, probably in less than a week. it's not too complicated. The missile's interface is quite simple. Power, tone, launch. everything else is in the missile itself and the helicopter doesn't need to know any of it.

Is it possible? is it useful? Was it planed? Was it ever done? Was it ever fired? Was it ever used in actual combat? Which one is enough for it to be included in a consumer simulation? I don't know. How many times would it have needed to be fired? How many helicopters would it have needed to be fitted on? One? All? Prototypes? Production helicopters? This is pointless, because ED decided to implement it anyway. Mind you without ever asking any of us on our opinion.

Could we just discuss the actual facts about what BS3 is going to be please instead of fighting over what should or shouldn't be implemented for whatever reasons, while nothing is going to come of it? Personally I have little hopes.

We'll probably get Igla, president s, new model, lighting fix and nothing else. nothing else was ever so much as spoken off by any official source as far as I know, and no one here seems to care about quoting anything to back their arguments with actual facts.

So please stop bickering already. It doesn't change anything anyway.

Iam also against paying for BS3 because BS1 and BS2 users, should get the update for free.

It takes coders and artists to make these updates. They don’t work for free! Where does this mentality come from. This one of many examples - I bought Destiny 1 and several paid for DLCs, then I bought Destiny 2 and several paid for DLCs. YOU owe the developers for improved content, new features and better visuals, THEY only owe you for bug fixes and completing an EA module.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ED knows they won't sell it if they don't give us what we want. :) And that includes FLIR.

 

 

The copter is plain UNSURVIVABLE on a modern battlefield, when every boy and his dog has an F-18.

Virtually any helicopter is on a modern contested battlefield

This will be no different for future Ah1F drivers, or even potential AH64 drivers (if that ever come to fruition), going up against Migs or flankers.

So i don't see why Russian helos should get special treatment, when most US helos with exception of a Ah1W/Z, will be in the same situation.

That is unless ED is going stoop down add fantasy features for future western helo too to make the more "competitive" in air-quake servers

Where has it been ever said there will be six pylons? Is it by thinking if Iglas are added it can’t possibly remove space for vikhrs?

The same people that are calling for a glass cockpit, FLIR & RWR initially asked for (demanded ?) 6 pylons on the grounds that the Ka-52 has six, so surely that was the intent for the Ka-50.

but, despite this comment:

ED doesn't talk, ED doesn't give us any plans they have for the Ka-50, no roadmap(…)

E.D. have actually posted pictures of the cockpit and said what the features planned at the time of announcement were... (on the Russian forum, but you can find the details earlier in the thread)

The minimum set of demands listed above goes past what they announced, but the lobby group have their fingers in their ears...

The same people that are calling for a glass cockpit, FLIR & RWR initially asked for (demanded ?) 6 pylons on the grounds that the Ka-52 has six, so surely that was the intent for the Ka-50.

 

but, despite this comment:

 

 

E.D. have actually posted pictures of the cockpit and said what the features planned at the time of announcement were... (on the Russian forum, but you can find the details earlier in the thread)

 

The minimum set of demands listed above goes past what they announced, but the lobby group have their fingers in their ears...

Well, sadly I don't speak russian and I can't search russian forums. English is the international language and as such it such be that language to be used for news posts. Russians speak english too. And if not, they should learn it. Just as I and millions of people around the world have learned it.

That said, no they did not post pictures of the new cockpit. They posted pictures of the improved cockpit of the current shark. Nowhere does it state it's the new cockpit of the BS3 with the paid for extra features. Unless they want to use the same pit for the two versions and have a lot of dead buttons and switches if you don't have the upgrade installed.

They said, condensed:

- New model and cockpit is free for all

- New systems will be a paid for dlcs

- New (paid for) systems will include igla + president S

The next news we got was 2 months later with this info:

"Work on Mi24 and KA50 upgrade is progressing [with no info as to how much or how at all and at what stage it is].

Hey have a look at this WW2 plane. [Proceeds with 5 paragraphs about FW]"

And that's all. Nothing else, no complete list of anything. No plans, no release dates, no pricing.

I seem to remember they announced things for this fall, but I can't find that anymore. But they announced things before and didn't deliver until years later.

How long have we been waiting for improved atc or built in voip?

Those are core features that would be free for everyone, and as such with dcs world being free, they won't make any money with such features. And so such features are put on the backburner again and again and again.

 

THEY only owe you for bug fixes and completing an EA module.

Yes they do. They owe us a fix for the lighting engine being broken by the new dcs world 2.5 that's been broke for years now. At least that's for free, which is good and fair.

I'm just plain disappointed about how no information is given.

(…) no they did not post pictures of the new cockpit. They posted pictures of the improved cockpit of the current shark.

That is the new cockpit.

Again, if you look through the threads you'll find discussion around how it differs from the current cockpit, and what that might mean regarding features.

What are you expecting - a glass cockpit :) ?

the cockpit:

the outside (complete with MLWS sensors & needles):

outside (complete with MLWS sensors & needles)

I've not yet seen photos that include Iglas, those are Vikhrs in the picture, on a 4-rail launcher.

I've not yet seen photos that include Iglas, those are Vikhrs in the picture, on a 4-rail launcher.

:book:

Планируем добавить третий пилон на консоль. Как на Ка-52.

Если игрок не подвешивает Иглы, то третьего пилона на консолях не будет.

Yeah I thought I had read that a while back, just that I don't think they've shown pictures yet with the third pylon.

I don't know what kind of god you are to know how the igla is going to work, how long you'd need to lock a target or how you manage to lock onto an F18 at 3km unless it's straight, level, low and slow or parked on the ramp.

You do it easily by using HMS and Shkval target gate at proper size. You can literally just look at the aircraft and get lock on it, IF IT LOCKS!

That is the problem in KA-50, you can't lock in obvious situations to only contrasty target on the scene because there is no contrast based lock but unit ID based locking. Why it can be very challenging to get a lock on a whole helicopter that fills whole gate, but easy to get that lock on their tail boom at smallest gate size.

When the Shkval works (it doesn't always work) you can slave it around fairly easily in DCS. Don't know the real one, as I don't even believe that it is linear two axis control but more of a two axis like a key buttons. So it can be unrealistic completely what it is in DCS.

I won't presume to know, but logically it'd be silly, if not to say stupid, to design a system to only be used within 15 seconds after a 7 second warmup against a fast moving target. and with no means to reset it on a super expensive aircraft (other than to land, get out of the pit and replace a canister or liquid nitrogen). Surely they'd use the helicopter's ability to lift more than a foot solider to store extra coolant and use the generator while the missile is attached instead of what is probably the crappiest battery in all of history. The Aim-9s can be used for 2 hours in cooling mode, and even afterwards track very nicely in a rear aspect angle. The R60 and R72 on the jets work for hours on end. I don't see why the IGLA would only be usable for that short amount of time.

I would argue for the same thing. Like why to have that 15 seconds time period only to use the missile that is suppose to save your life, the people on the ground you are protecting and who knows whom, just because the coolant ran off in few seconds after activating the missile?

The real IGLA is not like a firearm that you can just grab, point and pull a trigger and it fires a bullet. It takes seconds to turn on cooling, aim the target for seconds and then be ready to launch in the limited time range.

Not easy. Not like grabbing that AK-107 and shooting at that helicopter hovering at 500 meters from you.

But of course if have any actual proof of how they will be implemented by ED, then go on ahead and share it with me and others.

The IGLA doesn't get magical features be it used as MANPADS or as mounted to something else when it comes to its aiming and operation. But at least the few photos of the helicopter mount racks shows that each IGLA missile will have a two coolant units, instead one as in MANPADS, so you should get twice the time. And if you would carry 4-8 of those (you get racks in two or four for one station) then you should have enough changes to shoot at couple low level flying targets, as you should then have a 8-16 coolant chargers, if not one per missile at longer time that would still give respectful 4-8 changes. You only need to get one shot to get the target at least back off.

I for one can't lock even an A10 with the shkval. The cursor is way too slow or way too fast, depending on if you use the ministick or keyboard. So you have to position the cursor in front of your target, while zoomed out, any pray that the target flies through the 0.001° lock box and then frame perfectly hit the lock button.

That is one of the "moving target" modes and A-A modes features in DCS KA-50 that you can get Shkval automatically moving to wanted direction and then your new inputs are just additional to that.

If you zoomed in, the target just zips through the field of view of the camera way too fast to react. Even with the HMD you can't get accurate enough to lock that tiny dot in the sky.

Then the target just needs to climb over the 2° upwards gimbal limit to break the lock, and surely enough you have to tilt up to even start locking because the hostile aircraft is usually up and above you anyway, as you are meant to be low and near the deck while anything that threatens you is at 3000ft or above usually.

The missile is against "low level targets" and not a SAM.

And 3000 ft is 1km, that is not so high from few kilometer distances. If target is at 1km altitude and at 3km range, you have 18 degree angle to it. And Shkval limits are +15/-80 degree in elevation, so you would need only four degrees upward attitude at that moment for a few seconds to get a lock, launch and keep to guide missile. It ain't problem to gain some altitude at that moment while flying slightly backwards in that moment.

While you do tilt up, you have to not only concentrate on locking up a fast mover with bad optics, but also not crash into the trees behind you, fight the helicopter to turn to either side as you fly backwards.

It ain't that hard. That is why you do have trim, you have "Auto-Turn" and simply the skill to fly the helicopter. You are not there to hover between trees at 2 meters from the ground and pretending to be a hovertank.

Then you need to line up your missile and keep the target locked for 4-15 seconds while maneuvering your helicopter to keep that crappy, narrow field of view on the shkval on target all that time.

Not a problem. As you have Vikhr faster on the target than you have a IGLA.

With IGLA you don't even have that Shkval range of targeting, you have it boresighted, and get it locked for few seconds aiming at it with whole helicopter instead one targeting system.

So no, the Vihkr is crap as an A/A missile and is practical at best only against helicopters. It's frustrating to use, requires maneuvering and high workload for the entire duration of the engagement and more than likely gets you into a bad position to be shot at than if you'd just land in some forest and wait it out.

It is heavy workload if you have bad setup to do it. A real pilot is not using HOTAS on table with centering stick etc.

I for one would appreciate a turn my head and fire and forget kinda of missile for self defense. And if I fly in a group, i'd be willing to sacrifice 6 vikhrs for 4 iglas (from the pictures we get a rack with 4, not 2) on one pylon if I know that hostile aircrafts can be a factor and as usual cap is nowhere to be found. And since the S-8 don't really do anything but tickle infantry, If I can mount them on the inner stations, all the better, I'd never mount anything else anymore.

So instead fixing the rockets and get to use them as how useful they should be, you just want to carry some IGLA's for multiplayer air quake.

Also what is wrong with rockets in this sim? Just yesterday I loaded up 156x 20mm rockets on the hornet, parked 30 trucks in a straight line and unloaded all of the rockets in a pretty decent lineup and I killed 5 trucks. A single bullet from the 30mm gun is more effective than a salvo of 30 rockets. Same goes for the S8 and the bushmaster on the ka-50.

Anything that happens OUTSIDE of your cockpit, is not high simulation. It is extremely basic and simple, almost like playing tic-tac-toe. The chess level simulation is going only inside the cockpit and flying, not outside. So every bomb, every rocket, every shell etc you shoot, every target you see etc, they are just there like a target board is on the shooting range, nothing like a real thing.

People should stop expecting DCS to be a superior COMBAT simulator, as it is not. It is simulating the COMBAT AIRCRAFT flying, but not the actual combat. Not the actual effects or uses.

All that you really can use DCS is to learn how to release the bomb or missile, how that procedure goes by the book. Not trust the simulation how the missile is guided, how it flies, how it hits, how it damages. Once the missile leaves the rail, bomb gets released or rocket ignited, the high simulation says "bye bye". It happens even before it, at the moment you see a target in air or on ground.

DCS is mainly for people who want to feel the speed by the "Top Gun fans", the movie style action or then those who are avid aviation hobbyists and want to know how to operate an such aircraft as pilot. But it is not for a realism in combat. Way too limited and complex to be implemented in DCS at this moment.

You can even see the online community members denial for the idea that they do not have the fear for their lives, what could only be even partially simulated by making Online gameplay such that if you enter to Hard Core server, it is one virtual life per 24 hours. If you die, you can come back on next day. If you eject and survive, you could fly not until a SAR gets to you and picks you up back to base, so maybe couple hours.

A helicopter pilot wouldn't be there with even most advanced technology and trying to destroy a whole brigade with 12 Vikhrs and shoot down a whole flight of 4x hornets with 4x IGLA's. It would mainly be "fly there, shoot few rounds from cannon, fly back" and repeat that 1 hour flight couple times a day. That's it. You would get a mission that gives you a task to put some holes to one deserted shack and then fly back.

I'm just plain disappointed about how no information is given.

LOL

Just my opinion here...

There's all kinds of info. ALL of it that is concrete has come from ED. Every single piece. Because they're the ONLY ONES that know what they're doing.

If you don't have all of the same information that anyone else does that's YOUR fault. Not someone who doesn't speak your language.

Russians speak english too. And if not, they should learn it.

Just exactly how entitled are you? you want "Russians" to learn a language just because you can't be arsed to click a few extra buttons? Are you kidding me?

Well, sadly I don't speak russian and I can't search russian forums.

Yes... You can. You just don't want to use your own time and head to find your own answers. You'd rather they be spoon fed to you so you don't have to exert any effort.

Just my opinion here...

 

There's all kinds of info. ALL of it that is concrete has come from ED. Every single piece. Because they're the ONLY ONES that know what they're doing.

 

If you don't have all of the same information that anyone else does that's YOUR fault. Not someone who doesn't speak your language.

 

Just exactly how entitled are you? you want "Russians" to learn a language just because you can't be arsed to click a few extra buttons? Are you kidding me?

 

Do you mind presenting any of that information? Cause other than the two rather short news posts I couldn't find anything. Neither is any of it quoted here on this thread.

I don't see how this has anything to do with entitlement. english is the international language. And if developers are giving out news for an international game, they should use the international language.

Nearly every country in the world teaches english. I am not from an english speaking country, and I don't demand news in german, I learned english just like everyone else should have to. And if you want to keep an international community informed, then you should use english. And if you want to write in Russian on top of that, then fine.

I know some russians, and they told me english is taught in their schools also.

Yes... You can. You just don't want to use your own time and head to find your own answers. You'd rather they be spoon fed to you so you don't have to exert any effort.

So I should just enter random cyrillic letters, none of which are on my keyboard by the way, and hope it spells out "black shark 3 confirmed features" or something?

I often have a comment I want to say, but I don't want to sound like a dick... how about when,,, not which day but what year?

Any news about the second cockpit pay option? I am looking forward for something new in cockpit that improve my general experience. Any leaked information for the second cockpit?

I don't think there is second cockpit.

As they have now stick to the 2001 cockpit from the start, and not shown any point to implement new like 2008 glass cockpit with all RWR, FLIR etc, as they have said no FLIR.

So they stick with what we have. And then try to adapt features to it they think would a non-upgraded KA-50 have, as they don't do the upgraded version that has it all.

I'm also wondering if the new update is going to make all things in the KA-50 functional e.g. Shkval TVs Filters for the day and the night and so on...

I will be so disappointed if that is not the case!

see photo below...

It would be a fine move from ED if they would give us a quick update this week regarding the current state of the graphic update for the KA-50...:music_whistling: