P-51D, 3 types of flights online

Hey all, I've been working on learning the P-51 over the last few months and I am really enjoying flying it . With that said, what I am about to say may sound like complaining but that is not what I intend. I hope that some of you with more experience can help me (and others that are new P-51) enjoy the module more because it really is fantastic.

So let us begin... As I mentioned in the title my experience in the P-51D so far is that there are only 3 types of flights you can have online.

Flight type #1: Non-combat sortie.

I've done many flights on the Virtual Aerobatics Public Server to get a feel for what the P-51 is capable of. This is where I learned to start the engine, take off, and navigate. Then I started working on getting a feel for what the 51 can do. I've stalled the plane at every altitude between 5 and 25,000ft, worked on stall recovery, snap rolls, and some basic acm. I've now started using the server to work on closing on "targets", lead/lag pursuit, and even a little bit of formation flying. All in all it is great to do these flights and I usually put the plane back on the ground in one piece. No help needed here, these are 100% learning flights.

Now moving to combat sorties. There appear to be only two types of them for someone at my skill level, which is admittedly probably on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to DCS pilots... however that means I have lots of room for improvement which is the whole point of this post. Anyways...

Flight type #2: Combat sortie, above 20,000 ft.

This is where the Mustang should, and does, perform very well. However, there are two major problems with this in my experience.

Problem 1, there is no one else up there. In two months of flying on the ACG, DoW, & Burning Skies servers I have yet to see a German aircraft above about 15,000 ft. I can't say that I blame them either, there is no reason to climb to that altitude for a lone P-51 when there are 2 to 10 more down near the trees.

Problem 2, generally speaking it is extremely difficult for me to see anyone below me while at the same time it is extremely easy for anyone below me to see me (I believe all of the servers I've listed above use large imposters). There are obviously some situations where you can see aircraft far off at medium altitude, but once they are no longer a silhouette against the sky it is very hard to spot them until you can almost hear their engine. I know this has been discussed at length in many many other topics. I am actually ok with the large models at a distance since we lack radar stations that could theoretically vector us towards the enemy.

What I am struggling with is how to deal with this apparent disadvantage of being at altitude. I know people can spot aircraft flying lower than them. but how? I've been dived on multiple times (flying as I will talk about in type #3) by 109's which should, in principle(?), have a much harder time seeing something flying lower than they are. Are there tricks to seeing aircraft at medium range and lower altitude, or is this just a limitation of DCS currently (I'll live with it if it is, for now).

This type of flight ends one of two ways. Either I fly around at 20 to 25,000 ft until my fuel runs low and I rtb, or I get sucked into the next type of flight...

Flight type #3: Combat Sortie, low level (<10,000 ft)

This is where a vast majority of the online WWII combat in DCS occurs. I've seen the youtube videos of P-51s getting kills down at tree top level so I know it is possible. However, I'm slowly learning that an average pilot in a P-51 vs an average pilot in the 109 will lose much more often than they will win below 10,000 ft. The solution to this problem (for me) is to not fight down here... but I get greedy/bored and always find myself trying to trim the treetops with a 109 right on my tail. 9 out of 10 times this ends with a P-51 of the swiss cheese block or worse,

It also seems that more often than not the 109 pilot isn't "average". Because the 109 is more capable in low level flights it would make sense that the people that are interested in WWII air combat would fly it (why put myself at a disadvantage doing something I want to enjoy?). It is also equally possible that I'm less than average. Either way, the only way for me to stay alive seems to be this: Don't fight down low. However, with the lack of people at medium to high altitude this equals not fighting, which means I may as well stick to type #1 flights, which get boring pretty quickly.

So, in summary... As a new pilot to the P-51D I am running into the following issues, ranked from most sever to less. For the record these are MY issues that I would like to improve on. I don't intend these as negatives towards DCS as everyone plays by the same rules so there is no point in whining about what could or should change (there are MANY other places where that discussion has/will take place).

1. Spotting enemy aircraft vs them spotting me. With large models whoever is higher is (imo) actually at a huge disadvantage due the the difficulty of spotting targets flying against the ground at medium range. I will gladly take any advice on how to minimize this apparent handicap.

2. There is no reason for a 109/190 to be at medium to high altitude when the majority of P-51s will fly into combat at <5,000 ft. I have no idea how to fix this. More communication between P-51 pilots would definitely go a long way to help this (I hope).

3. The 109 is a damn good aircraft. I'd comment on the 190, but I never really see anyone flying them. I mean no disrespect to my fellow Mustang pilots, but on average it would appear that the 109 pilot is also a better pilot (better SA, better gunnery skills, etc). Perhaps this is biased heavily on my lack of ability, or by our collective willingness to fly to the 109's strengths... but taking a look at the burning skies stats page I think this statement is justified.

*edit* apparently I do not know how to use the table tags. sorry.

http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/statistics/type/1

http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/statistics/type/2

http://burning-skies.zzz.com.ua/statistics/type/3

TL: DR the mustang kill to loss ratio is about 0.4:1 (including losses to 190s) with pilots landing 44% of the times that they take off. Meanwhile 109 pilots land 66% of the times they take off with a k/d of 2.9:1.

Interesting side note, the 190 is far more likely to kill the pilot than a P-51 (37 kills by P-51s, yet 140 pilot losses).

I've heard the pleas for higher MP limits, better DM, different versions of the 109... all of it. That's all great to ask for, but it doesn't help "us" beat "them" right now. As a group, what can we do with the equipment we currently have to even the playing field between us and the "superior" German planes? As I said these are just my impressions. Discussion and advice are both encouraged and appreciated, thanks!

Flight type #3: Combat Sortie, low level (<10,000 ft)

 

This is where a vast majority of the online WWII combat in DCS occurs. I've seen the youtube videos of P-51s getting kills down at tree top level so I know it is possible. However, I'm slowly learning that an average pilot in a P-51 vs an average pilot in the 109 will lose much more often than they will win below 10,000 ft.

In multiplayer the P-51 should be flown with no more than 40% fuel, and if you drop a notch of flaps you can keep up with or even beat the 109K in a horizontal turn.

Keep an eye out for the next time I run my WWII campaign. Right now, its a once a week affair, but there are bombers to escort and each side does their own mission planning. Plenty of fights happened at 15k+ in the last run.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169782

In multiplayer the P-51 should be flown with no more than 40% fuel, and if you drop a notch of flaps you can keep up with or even beat the 109K in a horizontal turn.

Unless I forget, I usually take off with between 30-50% fuel.

I will have to experiment with the flaps. It seems a little counter intuitive to me to use the flaps when the speed of the Mustang is one of the few advantages I can actually use to my advantage... I'm getting better at knowing when to run .

Keep an eye out for the next time I run my WWII campaign. Right now, its a once a week affair, but there are bombers to escort and each side does their own mission planning. Plenty of fights happened at 15k+ in the last run.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=169782

I've followed the last campaign with great interest. It looks like a ton of fun! I would hate for my stupidity & mistakes to negatively affect anyone but myself though... but if there are openings for newer people like myself I am definitely interested in getting in on the next round.

One other thing that I forgot to mention (that had also been discussed at length elsewhere) is how broken the track files are of the WWII planes. I would love to load up a few of the missions that I've flown to see exactly what I could do better.

I've heard the pleas for higher MP limits, better DM, different versions of the 109... all of it. That's all great to ask for, but it doesn't help "us" beat "them" right now. As a group, what can we do with the equipment we currently have to even the playing field between us and the "superior" German planes? As I said these are just my impressions. Discussion and advice are both encouraged and appreciated, thanks!

I think the current low-level air quake style lone-wolf scenarios just favour the 109 very heavily. I think things would be very different in a high altitude teamplay based match. First the P-51 out performs the 109 at high altitude, and secondly the P-51 is a plane that IMO benefits more from teamwork than the 109. All planes benefit from teamwork, but the 109 is a better "lone wolf" plane.

I also think the P-51 could do with a bit of a boost in terms of gaining access to late-war engine settings and having an improved DM for the 50 cals.

Teamwork really is the key to winning IMO. I am far from being an expert pilot, but feel free to ping me Integrals if you'd like to do some flying together as a wingpair some time. I really love flying in close communication with other people. I have a teamspeak / mumble server we can use.

Unless I forget, I usually take off with between 30-50% fuel.

 

I will have to experiment with the flaps. It seems a little counter intuitive to me to use the flaps when the speed of the Mustang is one of the few advantages I can actually use to my advantage... I'm getting better at knowing when to run .

The 109K is faster than the P-51D.:doh:

First the P-51 out performs the 109 at high altitude

We all seem to believe this, but are there charts or graphs to back it up? There is no way the P-51 climbs better than a 109K above 20,000ft, but is it faster? Does it have a clearly better sustained turn?

P.S. Before you all get started, I'm talking about the in-game performance only.:smilewink:

109 climbs better and is faster no matter what altitude. I tried it out up to 28000 feet against a real player.

The 109K is faster than the P-51D.:doh:

 

 

 

We all seem to believe this, but are there charts or graphs to back it up? There is no way the P-51 climbs better than a 109K above 20,000ft, but is it faster? Does it have a clearly better sustained turn?

 

P.S. Before you all get started, I'm talking about the in-game performance only.:smilewink:

P51D has a problem with gaining it's max speed and it appears slower. It would be great if we had some tests done on the 109 and P51.

For those airquake missions take 30% fuel. Its enough for around 45min but remember u will get less in combat due to WEP and emergency rich.

I agree that DM and engine power are biggest issue together with number of competent players. Many US players fly with 68% of fuel (which is around 4h of flight time) and engage into turnfights with 109 at the deck. I think it is a result of the jet training in DCS which promotes flatturing. While most of the Germans do the same but they take 50% of fuel and that's around 30min more or less.

The same attitude but different plane lead to different results. We can see that with Fw190D players that use the same "jet-like" techinique and try to turn with P-51's and fail miserably especially if the P-51 is de-fueled. It is not to say that turning in a P-51 is not possible with a 109, but it requires a certain circumstances to occur.

[ame]

I had many fights where I could find a 109 that was probably flying with full fuel or just wasn't confident enough to push the envelope and outturn them.

And here comes the biggest issue, right now due to the DM beeing so... simple, the P-51D has to damage the structure enough so it brakes or kill the engine. And even then to get the kill you have to kill the pilot because most 109 players just crashland it and respawn denying you a kill. And that will still be a problem even with new DM if the core mechanic won't change. Anyway, due to that DM the P-51D has to put a good sustained burst onto a target to destroy it, and that is nearly impossible when you are using a B&Z aproach. And the easiest way to actually put the shots into the target is to turn with it.

So, if you want to win in P-51D, join the TS server (like the ACG TS server) and fly together. But also remember these few things:

1. Always turn with the 190 (except when you are realy high on fuel)

2. Try to avoid prolonged fights against the 109 especially if you see that he has low fuel state or is slow, you can use your energy advantage to deal with them.

3. Try flying at 3000m at least, so you have a good alitude to dive for home.

4. Use WEP in combat, do not fear your engine breaking.

5. Avoid low speed vertical high power climbs, but when you do one, close the throttle while diving, or your engine will blow.

6. At low altitudes use Emergency Rich mixture setting to help cool your engine (it will not work at high alt because you will choke your engine)

7. Remember your convergence 1000ft is perfect for B&Z it makes lots of damage.

8. When defensive against a 109, dive to the base and use roll for defense.

9. When defensive against a 190 try lure him into a lower speed turn fighting and fight him with angles.

10. Set up a curvature on your stick. The P-51D has a very long stick IRL and we have very short home sticks, so set it up so that you can use max deflection without hindering your movments so it can match the real life stick travel and give you much more steady maneuvering platform.

11. When turning use one or two notches of flaps, to tighten the turn and allow for more steady pull. Just remember that they make you bleed energy more so do not use them all the time, but rather when you need to get an edge.

I just tell that Mustang faster than Kurfurst on some altitudes.

+1 Solty

I'd only add that getting some serious comfort in with the gyro sight is also critical - practice practice and practice more to ensure your shots count. The gyro is underrated and can make a huge difference against the average 109 player

+1 Solty

 

I'd only add that getting some serious comfort in with the gyro sight is also critical - practice practice and practice more to ensure your shots count. The gyro is underrated and can make a huge difference against the average 109 player

It absolutely does!

Regarding the flaps, I would personally say never more than one notch, and before employing them, you should ask yourself "if I get a couple more degrees/second of turn, can I kill him in the next 10 seconds?" If the answer is no, leave the flaps up, go to a trail pursuit (or high yo-yo) and try to come back in into a more favorable position. Sometimes the flaps are NEEDED, because there's just no other way you can quite bring the nose around far enough to get guns on a Kurfurst who's pulling a stick-in-the-gut low speed turn, because they will hold a tighter, smaller-radius turn at low speed than you can manage unless you drop flaps. In that case, drop flaps, get the nose in, and kill him fast. You have to be patient enough to wait for the right opportunity to arrive. When it does, execute decisively, because you can't sustain a high-power, flaps-down turn for long before your engine overheats.

Defensively, they should only be used for *maybe* that last little push to kick your pursuer off your tail in a close scissors fight, but again, first ask yourself "with a couple more degrees/second and 10 less knots airspeed, can I force an overshoot in the next 10 seconds?"

In pretty much all other cases, avoid the flaps. They'll bleed too much energy and ultimately do little for you. Low energy Mustangs are dead Mustangs; if the enemy doesn't kill you, the engine blowing due to poor airflow/ poor cooling will!

No. Use as much flaps as you need. Sometimes your situation demands. If you are slow and low and it will allow for an overshoot go for it.

I had a fight with a where we went for scissors in vertical. My landing flaps allowed me to keep on flung while the 190 departed into a spin and hit the ground.

Use flaps as much as you need, but you are right about one thing and that is in point 2

Try to avoid prolonged fights against the 109

I agree that energy advantage should not be given away, but puting restrictions of flaps overal might be deadly in certain situations.

Sometimes your situation demands. If you are slow and low and it will allow for an overshoot go for it.

 

I had a fight with a where we went for scissors in vertical. My landing flaps allowed me to keep on flung while the 190 departed into a spin and hit the ground.

Gee, that kind of sounds like "the last little push to kick your pursuer off your tail in a close scissors fight".

You're welcome to use more flaps if you feel it benefits you; my experience is that the drag does more harm than the lift does good. Personally, I find it highly inadvisable to use more than one notch, or to drop them for longer than a few seconds (10 seconds being *forever* in a dogfight).

Particularly if there's another hostile anywhere in the area who can swoop in on you while you're trying to rebuild all that lost energy you blew fighting the first one.

The way you're advising fighting (or at least, the way it *looks* like you're advising) will result in a lot of blown engines.

Gee, that kind of sounds like "the last little push to kick your pursuer off your tail in a close scissors fight".

 

You're welcome to use more flaps if you feel it benefits you; my experience is that the drag does more harm than the lift does good. Personally, I find it highly inadvisable to use more than one notch, or to drop them for longer than a few seconds (10 seconds being *forever* in a dogfight).

 

Particularly if there's another hostile anywhere in the area who can swoop in on you while you're trying to rebuild all that lost energy you blew fighting the first one.

 

The way you're advising fighting (or at least, the way it *looks* like you're advising) will result in a lot of blown engines.

If you throttle back at the right time, the engine will not blow. I find guys that claim that they don't even use flaps and don't attempt WEP and use manual radiator control and still loose their engines, while I use full power, flaps and auto-radiators and do not blow my engine.

Last time it happened was my fault purely in terms of my movment. I went into a steep dive at high speed and my hand twiched and I pushed my throttle up from near idle to WEP which of course resulted in death of the engine :P. But overall I do not blow my engine anymore. Just remember to lower the power when there is a spot in time to throttle back into green, even for few seconds and it will be fine.:pilotfly:

Secondly, I am not advocating a fighting style here, I am just saying that survival depends on all aces you have up your sleeve. If you refuse to use your advantages during a dogfight, in favour of keeping your engine running in "safe" limitations, you will soon loose that engine due to a big 30mm round that will hit it.

Again, it is in some situations, not all the time. I am not trying to write absolutes here, just tips.:smartass:

I started a thread in the DCS WWII section: Mission Ideas

Very few people were interested in fly short missions in an historical environment. They'd rather fly air-quake or 4+ hour missions with flying from England to Germany and back and everything; not that the latter will ever be found on a public server without a many day pre-mission organization period.

I started a thread in the DCS WWII section: Very few people were interested in fly short missions in an historical environment.

I would be very interested, but I don't really have the time or the skills to create such missions and organise things. However, if someone else does, I would be super happy to participate if the time is good for me.

This is all great discussion However, I think I'm going to take a break from DCS WWII "combat" until 2 major issues are taken care of...

#1. Model visibility. I should not be able to hear aircraft before I can see them unless my eyes are 3" from my monitor. This is by far my biggest issue still.

#2. Damage Model. I didn't believe the cries at first because lets face it, I could never hit anything. But after having multiple good hits on an enemy only to have them eventually pull off a reverse and hit me resulting in my pilot being dead in one shot... It just isn't worth the frustration. People are not that lucky that often, even if I am bad enough to let them take the shot in the first place.

This post actually is complaining so I'll stop now. See you guys in the free flight servers.

First of all, don't fly alone. That's your biggest problem. Secondly, because these servers are so dead as compared to say IL2 BoS, people can and do get away with flying low. If there are ever a decent amount of people in a server then altitude is life. Most of your concerns come down to there not being very many people flying in a WWII server.

Someone mentioned using WEP always...This is another DCS gamer thing that isn't necessary. I've yet to ever need WEP in the P51. There has rarely been a time that I needed to go above 2800 rpm and 50" MP. You do realize what happens if you use WEP irl? Pilots weren't using it all the time and it was a rare occasion that it was used so it really shouldn't be any different in here unless you aren't really sure how you should be flying the plane.

If you throttle back at the right time, the engine will not blow. I find guys that claim that they don't even use flaps and don't attempt WEP and use manual radiator control and still loose their engines, while I use full power, flaps and auto-radiators and do not blow my engine.

 

Last time it happened was my fault purely in terms of my movment. I went into a steep dive at high speed and my hand twiched and I pushed my throttle up from near idle to WEP which of course resulted in death of the engine :P. But overall I do not blow my engine anymore. Just remember to lower the power when there is a spot in time to throttle back into green, even for few seconds and it will be fine.:pilotfly:

 

Secondly, I am not advocating a fighting style here, I am just saying that survival depends on all aces you have up your sleeve. If you refuse to use your advantages during a dogfight, in favour of keeping your engine running in "safe" limitations, you will soon loose that engine due to a big 30mm round that will hit it.

 

Again, it is in some situations, not all the time. I am not trying to write absolutes here, just tips.:smartass:

Another gamer thing, flaps in combat. That was also a rare thing in WW2. Flaps slow you down and getting speed back isn't that easy in a fight. Using flaps in combat is a computer flight sim thing and isn't necessarily correct.

Another gamer thing, flaps in combat. That was also a rare thing in WW2. Flaps slow you down and getting speed back isn't that easy in a fight. Using flaps in combat is a computer flight sim thing and isn't necessarily correct.

----------------

Someone mentioned using WEP always...This is another DCS gamer thing that isn't necessary. I've yet to ever need WEP in the P51. There has rarely been a time that I needed to go above 2800 rpm and 50" MP. You do realize what happens if you use WEP irl? Pilots weren't using it all the time and it was a rare occasion that it was used so it really shouldn't be any different in here unless you aren't really sure how you should be flying the plane.

There are accounts by pilots of the P-51 such as Bud Anderson or Henry Stewart.

"So the Messerschmitt is coming around again, climbing hard to his left, and I've had about enough of this. My angle is a little bit better this time. So I roll the dice. Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can. And the nose begins coming up and around, slowly, slowly. . ." Source:

http://www.acestory.elknet.pl/anderson/anderson.htm

Stewart:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/361-morgan-25aug44.jpg �"Several times we got into a luftberry but each time by using 20 degrees of flaps I found I could out turn him.� "

I will not copy the whole page here, go to the owner's page and go into the section:

"Use of flaps in combat" Source:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

Just because many pilots didn't use flaps, doesn't mean that some didn't and remember that not everyone is an ace, and an ace knows his airplane good enough to use his airplane to its maximum potential.

EDIT: I've also read and saw in a video that Japanese pilots used flaps a lot. So much that their designers put automatic maneuvering flaps for N1K.

---------

About WEP. No one said it should be used "all the time", just during combat.

Good for you if you feel comfy not using your max potential. Some people want to make their life harder I guess. But IRL:

And Lt. Col. John C. Meyer of the 352nd FG himself:

"I pulled 67 inches for 30 minutes and somewhere in that time lost them"

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-meyer-12may44.jpg

He also speaks about the flaps usage by both him and the German pilot during that fight.

600 mph?

600 mph?

The P51D could dive to mach 0.84 if needed.

Solty might not be good at explaining it, but he flies the P-51 well. The key is: LAG TURN

You will not win in a low and SLOW turn fight. The P-51 weighs a ton compared to the 109. You need speed in the P-51. The 109 will always (ALWAYS) out turn you. Let him turn tight... turn at you own speed. (High speed)

Flying slow is for chumps.

Fly fast, and fly with a wingman.

:pilotfly:

Solty might not be good at explaining it, but he flies the P-51 well. The key is: LAG TURN

 

You will not win in a low and SLOW turn fight. The P-51 weighs a ton compared to the 109. You need speed in the P-51. The 109 will always (ALWAYS) out turn you. Let him turn tight... turn at you own speed. (High speed)

 

Flying slow is for chumps.

 

Fly fast, and fly with a wingman.

 

:pilotfly:

Thank you Squirrel, but it seems there must have been a misunderstanding at one point and I want to clarify it.

So let me clarify:

Do not turn with a 109 for prolonged time

. And yes, I forgot to mention the lag pursuit curve which allows the Mustang to keep the speed for the right moment and at that moment, if you drop flaps, you will be able to sustain a long burst on a 109. But this is highly situational and you have to asses the energy difference between you and the target.:pilotfly:And you are correct. Flying with a wingman and fast is better than going into lone turnfights. Absolutely yes.

Secondly, sometimes, you find yourself in a situation when you cannot run, when you are damaged and do not have enough ammo etc. And at that tough moment you have to use everything you have to survive. I hope this old clip can clarify a bit:

[ame]

To be clear, we were both slow but he was a bit slower than me, after some maneuvering fight that we had right before that moment. But he was forcing an overshoot. I was unable to gain more speed and zoom above him, if I would get in front of him, I would be blown out of the sky. So my only option here was to enter scissors with him and deploy flaps to bleed speed and get in a position that I can force him to overshoot me, knowing that the Mustang has a bit better low speed handling than the 190. We both deployed flaps, but he didn't wanted to let go, neither did I.

He stalled out and went into a spin at that altitude, which was deadly. I managed to make a flaps assisted pullout from the stall that occured and slowly regained control and found out, that I was able to go home free and alive.

In conclusion. All I am trying to say is, learn your airplane its strenghts and weaknesses and do not be afraid to use the capability you have. Each situation is different and requires a different approach and flaps are not magic, so they will not pull you out of all situations. But they are a mighty useful tool that allows you to win if used correctly.

I hope this time I explained it better:smilewink: